1
00:00:11,990 --> 00:00:08,450
[Music]

2
00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:16,470
oh

3
00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:39,350
[Music]

4
00:00:44,229 --> 00:00:41,110
hey everybody how's it going welcome

5
00:00:46,069 --> 00:00:44,239
back to the channel um and for the first

6
00:00:47,350 --> 00:00:46,079
time in a mile we're not talking about

7
00:00:50,069 --> 00:00:47,360
calvin

8
00:00:52,389 --> 00:00:50,079
thank goodness

9
00:00:53,910 --> 00:00:52,399
i joke but yeah one thing i will say

10
00:00:56,150 --> 00:00:53,920
about that is the investigation is

11
00:00:58,069 --> 00:00:56,160
ongoing for all the many many many

12
00:01:00,150 --> 00:00:58,079
messages that i'm i'm getting that's

13
00:01:01,910 --> 00:01:00,160
ongoing but what we're doing tonight is

14
00:01:03,510 --> 00:01:01,920
we're focusing on some historic cases

15
00:01:04,869 --> 00:01:03,520
because i've spent the last few days

16
00:01:06,710 --> 00:01:04,879
digging back

17
00:01:08,550 --> 00:01:06,720
into some national archives

18
00:01:10,950 --> 00:01:08,560
records and looking at some really

19
00:01:13,750 --> 00:01:10,960
interesting cases with multiple data

20
00:01:15,670 --> 00:01:13,760
points and they are fascinating so

21
00:01:17,910 --> 00:01:15,680
we're going to cover some cases tonight

22
00:01:19,670 --> 00:01:17,920
with my guest and we're probably going

23
00:01:21,350 --> 00:01:19,680
to start doing this on on a regular

24
00:01:23,350 --> 00:01:21,360
basis you know looking back at cases

25
00:01:25,270 --> 00:01:23,360
that need to be probably brought forward

26
00:01:27,190 --> 00:01:25,280
a little bit more because they really

27
00:01:29,830 --> 00:01:27,200
are they're just as good as any modern

28
00:01:31,270 --> 00:01:29,840
case if not better in some respects so

29
00:01:33,030 --> 00:01:31,280
yeah good to see you guys in the live

30
00:01:35,030 --> 00:01:33,040
chat thank you for being here keep it

31
00:01:36,870 --> 00:01:35,040
nice calm and cordial

32
00:01:38,550 --> 00:01:36,880
and yeah that'd be great we'll have a

33
00:01:40,870 --> 00:01:38,560
smooth show so yeah let's not waste any

34
00:01:43,190 --> 00:01:40,880
more time let's bring in my guest my

35
00:01:44,870 --> 00:01:43,200
colleague at uap media uk

36
00:01:47,670 --> 00:01:44,880
uh my good friend

37
00:01:50,149 --> 00:01:47,680
and an amazing author mr graham rendell

38
00:01:52,550 --> 00:01:50,159
graham how's it going hello vinnie

39
00:01:56,950 --> 00:01:52,560
here's teammate oh

40
00:02:01,670 --> 00:01:59,190
i had a couple of glasses of

41
00:02:04,149 --> 00:02:01,680
red with my dinner but

42
00:02:06,389 --> 00:02:04,159
oh wow cool you're making me envious

43
00:02:09,510 --> 00:02:07,910
well listen thank you so much for doing

44
00:02:12,070 --> 00:02:09,520
this graham and as i just said you know

45
00:02:14,309 --> 00:02:12,080
i was i've been diving back into some

46
00:02:16,949 --> 00:02:14,319
some archives some documents which is

47
00:02:18,630 --> 00:02:16,959
something that i did for many years

48
00:02:20,710 --> 00:02:18,640
before i even did any of my social

49
00:02:22,790 --> 00:02:20,720
medias or even came on the scene i was

50
00:02:25,030 --> 00:02:22,800
always in the background

51
00:02:26,470 --> 00:02:25,040
late at night in front of this screen

52
00:02:28,550 --> 00:02:26,480
digging and digging and digging and i've

53
00:02:29,670 --> 00:02:28,560
kind of just rekindled that love for it

54
00:02:31,110 --> 00:02:29,680
again

55
00:02:33,030 --> 00:02:31,120
and and

56
00:02:34,630 --> 00:02:33,040
we mentioned before we came on about

57
00:02:36,869 --> 00:02:34,640
going actually going to the national

58
00:02:38,869 --> 00:02:36,879
archives as well and that was the first

59
00:02:40,949 --> 00:02:38,879
time last year when we both went

60
00:02:43,030 --> 00:02:40,959
together and

61
00:02:45,509 --> 00:02:43,040
i can see how addicting it is how it

62
00:02:48,790 --> 00:02:45,519
that that feel for like

63
00:02:50,550 --> 00:02:48,800
finding that little gem mixed in those

64
00:02:53,350 --> 00:02:50,560
documents that's been you know archived

65
00:02:54,949 --> 00:02:53,360
away for so many years so

66
00:02:56,229 --> 00:02:54,959
yeah what are you

67
00:02:58,710 --> 00:02:56,239
how long have you been going to the

68
00:03:00,309 --> 00:02:58,720
archives and things like that and

69
00:03:02,630 --> 00:03:00,319
and do you still get the buzz every time

70
00:03:04,390 --> 00:03:02,640
you go so digging in the archives

71
00:03:05,910 --> 00:03:04,400
actually physically going to queue that

72
00:03:07,750 --> 00:03:05,920
was my first time i've done a lot of

73
00:03:11,030 --> 00:03:07,760
stuff remotely because i covered you

74
00:03:12,630 --> 00:03:11,040
couldn't go anyway and so for two years

75
00:03:14,149 --> 00:03:12,640
kind of thing that i was doing things i

76
00:03:17,030 --> 00:03:14,159
was having to pay do everything a long

77
00:03:18,949 --> 00:03:17,040
way so pay them to search and then if

78
00:03:20,470 --> 00:03:18,959
they found anything um then i would have

79
00:03:23,670 --> 00:03:20,480
to pay again for the records to be

80
00:03:25,270 --> 00:03:23,680
either sent digitally or or in a post um

81
00:03:26,789 --> 00:03:25,280
and sometimes you lost money because of

82
00:03:28,949 --> 00:03:26,799
things you were asking for they couldn't

83
00:03:30,470 --> 00:03:28,959
find and you had to stump up like eight

84
00:03:32,149 --> 00:03:30,480
pound for a search fee

85
00:03:33,990 --> 00:03:32,159
um but there's also things like freedom

86
00:03:35,990 --> 00:03:34,000
information act requests that you know

87
00:03:38,070 --> 00:03:36,000
you can do as well online so a few of

88
00:03:39,990 --> 00:03:38,080
them in the past um and then again it's

89
00:03:42,390 --> 00:03:40,000
just trawling through online archives

90
00:03:44,470 --> 00:03:42,400
like hansard the government um archive

91
00:03:45,750 --> 00:03:44,480
here of all the all the transcripts of

92
00:03:47,910 --> 00:03:45,760
all the debates in the house of lords

93
00:03:50,390 --> 00:03:47,920
the house commons in the uk and some of

94
00:03:51,750 --> 00:03:50,400
the written uh replies to questions you

95
00:03:53,750 --> 00:03:51,760
can look through those on the on the

96
00:03:55,589 --> 00:03:53,760
internet and you can delve into things

97
00:03:57,830 --> 00:03:55,599
that way and you can see you know

98
00:03:59,429 --> 00:03:57,840
debates on ufos going back into the 70s

99
00:04:01,110 --> 00:03:59,439
and even earlier

100
00:04:03,830 --> 00:04:01,120
so there's a lot of stuff like that but

101
00:04:06,229 --> 00:04:03,840
of course in a previous life um and it

102
00:04:08,390 --> 00:04:06,239
sort of continued into now that i write

103
00:04:10,070 --> 00:04:08,400
about aviation history as well so a lot

104
00:04:12,070 --> 00:04:10,080
of the things i used to do

105
00:04:15,350 --> 00:04:12,080
have basically translated themselves

106
00:04:17,509 --> 00:04:15,360
really easily to ufos it's the same kind

107
00:04:19,349 --> 00:04:17,519
of thing i'm looking into historical

108
00:04:22,390 --> 00:04:19,359
documents i did that for the aviation

109
00:04:24,230 --> 00:04:22,400
history so again i'm looking at um your

110
00:04:26,790 --> 00:04:24,240
loss records for people when you're

111
00:04:28,629 --> 00:04:26,800
looking at um sometimes casualties um

112
00:04:30,550 --> 00:04:28,639
it's a you know that's i'll say i'm not

113
00:04:33,110 --> 00:04:30,560
looking at those for ufos but those

114
00:04:34,790 --> 00:04:33,120
types of online record databases there's

115
00:04:36,790 --> 00:04:34,800
a lot of things like that that you can

116
00:04:38,550 --> 00:04:36,800
you can search and you're just pulling

117
00:04:39,990 --> 00:04:38,560
out a little bit of information you're

118
00:04:41,270 --> 00:04:40,000
setting them against something else you

119
00:04:42,710 --> 00:04:41,280
might find out and you're seeing whether

120
00:04:44,310 --> 00:04:42,720
they match or whether there's any

121
00:04:46,150 --> 00:04:44,320
discrepancies and then you chase down

122
00:04:47,990 --> 00:04:46,160
what the discrepancies are and you just

123
00:04:49,749 --> 00:04:48,000
keep you just you know the sky's the

124
00:04:51,990 --> 00:04:49,759
limit kind of thing in terms of how much

125
00:04:53,909 --> 00:04:52,000
information you might be able to amass

126
00:04:56,150 --> 00:04:53,919
and but then again it's then a question

127
00:04:58,469 --> 00:04:56,160
of distilling it down into a form that's

128
00:05:00,150 --> 00:04:58,479
easy enough to read and understand um

129
00:05:03,029 --> 00:05:00,160
you can't assume that everybody who

130
00:05:04,629 --> 00:05:03,039
reads it is up to speed with the ufos

131
00:05:06,310 --> 00:05:04,639
some people might just pull it off you

132
00:05:07,830 --> 00:05:06,320
know the bookshelf or buying on amazon

133
00:05:09,990 --> 00:05:07,840
and they know nothing about the subject

134
00:05:11,909 --> 00:05:10,000
and they want to um you know to get into

135
00:05:15,510 --> 00:05:11,919
it much easier so you have to sort of

136
00:05:17,110 --> 00:05:15,520
pitch it to a lot of different audiences

137
00:05:20,070 --> 00:05:17,120
yeah absolutely i think one thing that i

138
00:05:21,749 --> 00:05:20,080
really found rewarding was

139
00:05:23,029 --> 00:05:21,759
going back all those years where i was

140
00:05:24,469 --> 00:05:23,039
doing a lot of research i was

141
00:05:25,909 --> 00:05:24,479
researching a lot of the american files

142
00:05:27,909 --> 00:05:25,919
so the blue book files and things like

143
00:05:30,469 --> 00:05:27,919
that but then when i started digging

144
00:05:32,629 --> 00:05:30,479
into the uk national archives you'd come

145
00:05:34,950 --> 00:05:32,639
across cases that you'd seen in blue

146
00:05:36,870 --> 00:05:34,960
book but from the uk perspective and

147
00:05:39,749 --> 00:05:36,880
when you match them up together that is

148
00:05:42,230 --> 00:05:39,759
amazing because you've got both sides

149
00:05:43,749 --> 00:05:42,240
and double the the the details the

150
00:05:45,270 --> 00:05:43,759
evidence and stuff so i found that

151
00:05:48,150 --> 00:05:45,280
really rewarding

152
00:05:50,629 --> 00:05:48,160
and and one thing that i initially

153
00:05:52,870 --> 00:05:50,639
kind of was a bit wary of was

154
00:05:54,790 --> 00:05:52,880
when you before our visit to the

155
00:05:56,390 --> 00:05:54,800
national archives it asks you what files

156
00:05:58,070 --> 00:05:56,400
you want and you're like

157
00:05:59,909 --> 00:05:58,080
i just want to look at

158
00:06:01,749 --> 00:05:59,919
this and this but you need to give them

159
00:06:04,150 --> 00:06:01,759
specific numbers now you've got to do a

160
00:06:05,510 --> 00:06:04,160
lot of homework beforehand vinnie yeah

161
00:06:07,670 --> 00:06:05,520
as the audience may or may not

162
00:06:09,270 --> 00:06:07,680
appreciate it's not a case of as you say

163
00:06:11,350 --> 00:06:09,280
just going down to them and talking the

164
00:06:13,350 --> 00:06:11,360
guy on the desk and saying oh i need to

165
00:06:15,749 --> 00:06:13,360
see your files on ufos for you know x

166
00:06:17,430 --> 00:06:15,759
month x year it doesn't work that way

167
00:06:19,909 --> 00:06:17,440
you have to find the file references and

168
00:06:21,510 --> 00:06:19,919
you have to tell them in advance online

169
00:06:22,870 --> 00:06:21,520
and then they'll find them

170
00:06:24,309 --> 00:06:22,880
and they'll put them in a little kind of

171
00:06:25,909 --> 00:06:24,319
little pigeon hole for you when you turn

172
00:06:27,510 --> 00:06:25,919
up and you can only take one file at a

173
00:06:29,749 --> 00:06:27,520
time to the reading desks to go through

174
00:06:31,189 --> 00:06:29,759
them as well i found out certainly

175
00:06:36,230 --> 00:06:31,199
because i got chilled off by a member of

176
00:06:40,390 --> 00:06:38,550
i actually had the stack as well about

177
00:06:42,550 --> 00:06:40,400
that i was right in the far corner of

178
00:06:43,830 --> 00:06:42,560
the archives and no one saw me so i got

179
00:06:45,590 --> 00:06:43,840
away with it

180
00:06:48,950 --> 00:06:45,600
so for anybody that does want to dig

181
00:06:50,150 --> 00:06:48,960
into this my recommendation would be

182
00:06:52,710 --> 00:06:50,160
reach out to people that have already

183
00:06:54,790 --> 00:06:52,720
done it and people really do want to

184
00:06:57,189 --> 00:06:54,800
help and that helped me

185
00:06:58,070 --> 00:06:57,199
so you know it's and this is the thing

186
00:06:59,749 --> 00:06:58,080
like

187
00:07:01,430 --> 00:06:59,759
i've struggled in the past going where

188
00:07:03,510 --> 00:07:01,440
do i start

189
00:07:05,909 --> 00:07:03,520
um and i think you have to first think

190
00:07:07,990 --> 00:07:05,919
about the era you know is it the 40s the

191
00:07:09,270 --> 00:07:08,000
50s the 60s and then whittle it down

192
00:07:11,029 --> 00:07:09,280
from there but

193
00:07:12,550 --> 00:07:11,039
what would you suggest to anybody graham

194
00:07:15,270 --> 00:07:12,560
about you know i just want to look at

195
00:07:16,629 --> 00:07:15,280
cool ufo documents where would you start

196
00:07:18,790 --> 00:07:16,639
so there's there's plenty out there

197
00:07:22,150 --> 00:07:18,800
already um if you search for likes of

198
00:07:24,469 --> 00:07:22,160
you know nikap um there's this kind of

199
00:07:26,870 --> 00:07:24,479
or all that other sort of online

200
00:07:28,950 --> 00:07:26,880
databases there's lots of documentation

201
00:07:31,990 --> 00:07:28,960
out there nycap have a good um sort of

202
00:07:34,070 --> 00:07:32,000
stock of oil documents for covering all

203
00:07:36,710 --> 00:07:34,080
sorts of types of cases and you can look

204
00:07:39,749 --> 00:07:36,720
at them online um

205
00:07:41,510 --> 00:07:39,759
also there is an internet archive which

206
00:07:43,350 --> 00:07:41,520
actually has all the blue book documents

207
00:07:44,390 --> 00:07:43,360
or at least you know all the ones that

208
00:07:47,029 --> 00:07:44,400
can be found

209
00:07:48,629 --> 00:07:47,039
and that's available online as well i'm

210
00:07:51,350 --> 00:07:48,639
sure it's called the internet archive

211
00:07:53,270 --> 00:07:51,360
and it's you can just um specify a month

212
00:07:55,589 --> 00:07:53,280
and a year and then it pulls them all

213
00:07:57,350 --> 00:07:55,599
out um now i'll see that it's mostly

214
00:07:58,550 --> 00:07:57,360
american-centric so for people like

215
00:08:00,710 --> 00:07:58,560
south america if they're looking for

216
00:08:02,710 --> 00:08:00,720
something new at home then it may not

217
00:08:04,469 --> 00:08:02,720
quite cover what they're looking for but

218
00:08:05,909 --> 00:08:04,479
it does have foreign cases and it does

219
00:08:08,390 --> 00:08:05,919
have some british cases it does have

220
00:08:10,390 --> 00:08:08,400
some from south america from africa and

221
00:08:12,150 --> 00:08:10,400
elsewhere and a lot actually does have a

222
00:08:14,230 --> 00:08:12,160
lot from japan which i think we're going

223
00:08:16,550 --> 00:08:14,240
to talk about one in a minute uh in a

224
00:08:18,390 --> 00:08:16,560
few minutes uh and places like korea as

225
00:08:20,390 --> 00:08:18,400
well so there's there's definitely you

226
00:08:22,550 --> 00:08:20,400
know a good spread of cases

227
00:08:24,469 --> 00:08:22,560
geographically but then

228
00:08:25,589 --> 00:08:24,479
the the ministry of defense released a

229
00:08:27,749 --> 00:08:25,599
whole load of

230
00:08:29,189 --> 00:08:27,759
uk documents and they're through the

231
00:08:31,510 --> 00:08:29,199
national archives so you can actually

232
00:08:33,029 --> 00:08:31,520
see them and there's plenty of places on

233
00:08:34,870 --> 00:08:33,039
the internet which actually give the

234
00:08:37,029 --> 00:08:34,880
file names so it's not as if you're

235
00:08:38,949 --> 00:08:37,039
having to um you know to search yourself

236
00:08:41,350 --> 00:08:38,959
but you can do that there is a search

237
00:08:43,269 --> 00:08:41,360
engine on the national archives um

238
00:08:45,430 --> 00:08:43,279
website which you can just literally put

239
00:08:47,670 --> 00:08:45,440
ufo into and it comes up with all the

240
00:08:49,190 --> 00:08:47,680
relevant you know all the relevant links

241
00:08:51,430 --> 00:08:49,200
and a lot of that if you create an

242
00:08:52,870 --> 00:08:51,440
account with the national archives then

243
00:08:55,509 --> 00:08:52,880
you can download

244
00:08:57,829 --> 00:08:55,519
it's 30 sorry it's either 30 or 100

245
00:08:59,910 --> 00:08:57,839
documents for free each month uh you get

246
00:09:02,389 --> 00:08:59,920
that sorry 100 documents each month for

247
00:09:04,150 --> 00:09:02,399
free which is quite a lot um

248
00:09:06,470 --> 00:09:04,160
you know and it rolls over each month so

249
00:09:08,230 --> 00:09:06,480
that's a good way to get a lot of those

250
00:09:09,990 --> 00:09:08,240
and some of them are quite considerable

251
00:09:12,389 --> 00:09:10,000
in size that they run to hundreds of

252
00:09:15,110 --> 00:09:12,399
pages a lot of it's

253
00:09:17,190 --> 00:09:15,120
that i say dross it's a lot you'll see

254
00:09:19,670 --> 00:09:17,200
how you you've probably seen these that

255
00:09:21,990 --> 00:09:19,680
some of them are taken up with people

256
00:09:24,870 --> 00:09:22,000
writing weird and wacky letters to the

257
00:09:26,630 --> 00:09:24,880
mod with screens and screens of

258
00:09:28,230 --> 00:09:26,640
religious text and

259
00:09:29,990 --> 00:09:28,240
the things that they believe or their

260
00:09:31,910 --> 00:09:30,000
their kind of scripture or their you

261
00:09:33,670 --> 00:09:31,920
know all that or all these weird

262
00:09:35,910 --> 00:09:33,680
wonderful kind of things that they're

263
00:09:37,509 --> 00:09:35,920
spouting and and very little of it

264
00:09:39,430 --> 00:09:37,519
actually it makes any sense and can be

265
00:09:42,150 --> 00:09:39,440
backed up with any kind of evidence at

266
00:09:43,829 --> 00:09:42,160
all but you know some people might think

267
00:09:45,750 --> 00:09:43,839
it's fun reading it but there's a lot of

268
00:09:47,430 --> 00:09:45,760
good stuff in there as well

269
00:09:49,030 --> 00:09:47,440
absolutely one thing i noticed going

270
00:09:51,269 --> 00:09:49,040
through the files was that you'd have

271
00:09:53,829 --> 00:09:51,279
that kind of dross as you call it but

272
00:09:55,829 --> 00:09:53,839
you go from one page of ross and the

273
00:09:56,790 --> 00:09:55,839
next page could be an internal memo

274
00:09:59,030 --> 00:09:56,800
between

275
00:10:00,870 --> 00:09:59,040
mod and di55 or something and you're

276
00:10:03,110 --> 00:10:00,880
like wow this is really interesting and

277
00:10:04,949 --> 00:10:03,120
this information it's not sorted out

278
00:10:07,430 --> 00:10:04,959
into any kind of genre in terms of you

279
00:10:10,389 --> 00:10:07,440
know the the wacky stuff and as you say

280
00:10:12,150 --> 00:10:10,399
they're the real kind of gems um it just

281
00:10:14,710 --> 00:10:12,160
it's it almost seems to be some kind of

282
00:10:15,990 --> 00:10:14,720
date order and it's in rough day audit

283
00:10:18,069 --> 00:10:16,000
um so

284
00:10:20,230 --> 00:10:18,079
you can see sometimes i'm not going to

285
00:10:22,710 --> 00:10:20,240
mention carbine but you can mention

286
00:10:24,630 --> 00:10:22,720
other cases you can see sometimes um

287
00:10:26,550 --> 00:10:24,640
you'll find a document about a certain

288
00:10:28,389 --> 00:10:26,560
case and then because the investigation

289
00:10:29,829 --> 00:10:28,399
might have taken a few weeks then

290
00:10:31,590 --> 00:10:29,839
there'll be another document you know a

291
00:10:33,190 --> 00:10:31,600
bit later on the file and then there'll

292
00:10:34,389 --> 00:10:33,200
be another follow-up a bit later on

293
00:10:36,710 --> 00:10:34,399
because they might come back to it

294
00:10:39,110 --> 00:10:36,720
somehow or there might be an um a reply

295
00:10:41,350 --> 00:10:39,120
by the the original correspondent who

296
00:10:44,870 --> 00:10:41,360
who notified the mod of the case or

297
00:10:46,470 --> 00:10:44,880
reported it and they're going he's or he

298
00:10:47,910 --> 00:10:46,480
or she coming back saying i don't agree

299
00:10:49,910 --> 00:10:47,920
with what you said and then there's

300
00:10:51,430 --> 00:10:49,920
another reply to that an official reply

301
00:10:52,790 --> 00:10:51,440
which might have some more information

302
00:10:54,949 --> 00:10:52,800
so you get this kind of tuning and

303
00:10:56,949 --> 00:10:54,959
throwing but it it's split out between

304
00:10:59,110 --> 00:10:56,959
the files so i'm afraid you have to be

305
00:11:00,389 --> 00:10:59,120
patient you can't expect miracles you're

306
00:11:02,230 --> 00:11:00,399
not going to necessarily you're not

307
00:11:05,750 --> 00:11:02,240
really going to get many many answers if

308
00:11:07,190 --> 00:11:05,760
any from those the mod documents but you

309
00:11:08,470 --> 00:11:07,200
just have to dig and you just have to

310
00:11:10,550 --> 00:11:08,480
put it together with other things that

311
00:11:13,269 --> 00:11:10,560
you found out or things from elsewhere

312
00:11:14,550 --> 00:11:13,279
and it slowly builds up the picture

313
00:11:16,150 --> 00:11:14,560
it does and that's probably one of the

314
00:11:18,310 --> 00:11:16,160
reasons why i wanted to do this and to

315
00:11:19,910 --> 00:11:18,320
continue doing this is that you find

316
00:11:22,550 --> 00:11:19,920
multiple data points for individual

317
00:11:24,550 --> 00:11:22,560
cases so you know we talk about modern

318
00:11:26,550 --> 00:11:24,560
cases like the nimitz encounter for

319
00:11:28,949 --> 00:11:26,560
example how there's you know testimony

320
00:11:31,509 --> 00:11:28,959
there's radar apparently well the a lot

321
00:11:33,430 --> 00:11:31,519
of these cases dating right back

322
00:11:35,590 --> 00:11:33,440
i have got that as well

323
00:11:37,670 --> 00:11:35,600
uh yeah you just have to be patient find

324
00:11:39,190 --> 00:11:37,680
it and then put it all together but when

325
00:11:40,630 --> 00:11:39,200
these other things sorry just to jump in

326
00:11:42,550 --> 00:11:40,640
there's other things as well you can

327
00:11:44,470 --> 00:11:42,560
look at the the names of the people

328
00:11:47,190 --> 00:11:44,480
involved and you can search

329
00:11:48,710 --> 00:11:47,200
old newspapers and you get you might get

330
00:11:50,389 --> 00:11:48,720
more information that way from a case

331
00:11:52,310 --> 00:11:50,399
which doesn't necessarily make it into

332
00:11:54,150 --> 00:11:52,320
the the official investigation such as

333
00:11:56,230 --> 00:11:54,160
blue book and then you can chase down

334
00:11:57,590 --> 00:11:56,240
those people and then occasionally very

335
00:11:58,790 --> 00:11:57,600
very occasionally you'll find that they

336
00:12:00,870 --> 00:11:58,800
actually write

337
00:12:03,430 --> 00:12:00,880
um accounts of these sightings

338
00:12:07,269 --> 00:12:03,440
themselves for sometimes little known

339
00:12:09,269 --> 00:12:07,279
ufo newsletters in the 50s 60s and 70s

340
00:12:10,870 --> 00:12:09,279
and that's another good way of finding

341
00:12:12,949 --> 00:12:10,880
just a little bit you know more

342
00:12:14,949 --> 00:12:12,959
information about certain cases

343
00:12:17,430 --> 00:12:14,959
um which just adds up to you know just

344
00:12:19,670 --> 00:12:17,440
to build a bigger picture and also these

345
00:12:20,870 --> 00:12:19,680
are people's personal recollections so

346
00:12:23,670 --> 00:12:20,880
they're not necessarily a hundred

347
00:12:25,829 --> 00:12:23,680
percent accurate but

348
00:12:28,230 --> 00:12:25,839
that picture just expands more than just

349
00:12:29,910 --> 00:12:28,240
a few brief words in an intelligence

350
00:12:31,030 --> 00:12:29,920
document

351
00:12:32,629 --> 00:12:31,040
absolutely

352
00:12:34,389 --> 00:12:32,639
so let's let's move on to this first

353
00:12:35,670 --> 00:12:34,399
case that we i wanted to discuss and i

354
00:12:39,030 --> 00:12:35,680
think this one is from dawn of the

355
00:12:41,750 --> 00:12:39,040
flying sources am i right yeah it is so

356
00:12:46,069 --> 00:12:41,760
let's bring up my screen

357
00:12:49,350 --> 00:12:46,079
so this is the 1946 to 1949 aerial ufo

358
00:12:51,670 --> 00:12:49,360
encounters and official investigations

359
00:12:53,190 --> 00:12:51,680
written by yourself forward by george

360
00:12:55,750 --> 00:12:53,200
knapp that's uh

361
00:12:56,949 --> 00:12:55,760
it's amazing isn't it um really happy

362
00:12:57,750 --> 00:12:56,959
with that

363
00:12:59,910 --> 00:12:57,760
yeah

364
00:13:02,550 --> 00:12:59,920
right so i'm just gonna

365
00:13:03,990 --> 00:13:02,560
go to the first image so

366
00:13:07,030 --> 00:13:04,000
here we go then

367
00:13:10,069 --> 00:13:07,040
so the picture is a of a a

368
00:13:11,750 --> 00:13:10,079
another uh 61 black widow now those of

369
00:13:13,829 --> 00:13:11,760
you and i see you wearing the t-shirt or

370
00:13:16,069 --> 00:13:13,839
the cover there uh of the foo fighters

371
00:13:18,150 --> 00:13:16,079
book that i wrote last year these

372
00:13:20,310 --> 00:13:18,160
aircraft uh figured um they were sort of

373
00:13:21,990 --> 00:13:20,320
featured quite heavily in that because a

374
00:13:24,230 --> 00:13:22,000
couple of squadrons that were seeing

375
00:13:25,670 --> 00:13:24,240
them in in belgium and also in italy

376
00:13:27,269 --> 00:13:25,680
were flying this particular type of

377
00:13:30,230 --> 00:13:27,279
aircraft it's actually a night fighter

378
00:13:32,310 --> 00:13:30,240
and it was the first um

379
00:13:34,389 --> 00:13:32,320
aircraft that the americans built for

380
00:13:37,670 --> 00:13:34,399
their uh for their army air force it was

381
00:13:39,829 --> 00:13:37,680
a specific knight fighter um so you had

382
00:13:41,910 --> 00:13:39,839
either crew of two or a crew three so

383
00:13:43,189 --> 00:13:41,920
there was a pilot there was a radar

384
00:13:45,269 --> 00:13:43,199
observer who

385
00:13:47,269 --> 00:13:45,279
obviously operated the airborne radar

386
00:13:48,790 --> 00:13:47,279
system and sometimes they had a gunner

387
00:13:50,629 --> 00:13:48,800
on board this aircraft here doesn't have

388
00:13:52,870 --> 00:13:50,639
one but they occasionally had a remote

389
00:13:54,310 --> 00:13:52,880
controlled gun turret on top you can see

390
00:13:55,670 --> 00:13:54,320
a kind of little circle on top of the

391
00:13:57,189 --> 00:13:55,680
aircraft and that's where it would have

392
00:13:59,509 --> 00:13:57,199
been fitted so there could have been

393
00:14:01,110 --> 00:13:59,519
sometimes a third member of crew on some

394
00:14:02,389 --> 00:14:01,120
of these types of aircraft i'm just

395
00:14:03,829 --> 00:14:02,399
going to refer to a couple of notes

396
00:14:07,430 --> 00:14:03,839
because i want to actually

397
00:14:09,350 --> 00:14:07,440
read out um part of the um the the

398
00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:09,360
intelligence document with this

399
00:14:13,910 --> 00:14:11,360
particular case i'll i'll sort of set

400
00:14:16,069 --> 00:14:13,920
the scene as well so we're looking at

401
00:14:19,269 --> 00:14:16,079
the 13th of sorry the 15th of october

402
00:14:20,870 --> 00:14:19,279
1948 and this is off the coast of japan

403
00:14:23,030 --> 00:14:20,880
and this is so this is before the korean

404
00:14:24,310 --> 00:14:23,040
war the korean war so you're looking at

405
00:14:27,750 --> 00:14:24,320
about a year and a half before that

406
00:14:29,670 --> 00:14:27,760
kicked off um it's during the american

407
00:14:31,670 --> 00:14:29,680
occupation of japan after the second

408
00:14:33,829 --> 00:14:31,680
world war and they've got air bases

409
00:14:35,350 --> 00:14:33,839
there where they're flying aircraft uh

410
00:14:37,750 --> 00:14:35,360
and they're flying you know sort of

411
00:14:39,269 --> 00:14:37,760
patrols over the yellow sea and uh

412
00:14:40,949 --> 00:14:39,279
places around japan because obviously

413
00:14:43,430 --> 00:14:40,959
there's a possible threat they get from

414
00:14:46,069 --> 00:14:43,440
the chinese the the communists but also

415
00:14:48,629 --> 00:14:46,079
from the russians as well so it's a it's

416
00:14:49,910 --> 00:14:48,639
not a flash point as such quite then but

417
00:14:52,790 --> 00:14:49,920
it's a place where i'll see the

418
00:14:54,629 --> 00:14:52,800
americans are heavily invested and this

419
00:14:57,670 --> 00:14:54,639
is actually this happens a fortnight

420
00:14:59,350 --> 00:14:57,680
after the so-called gorman dogfight um

421
00:15:00,949 --> 00:14:59,360
which

422
00:15:03,829 --> 00:15:00,959
i've talked about at length elsewhere

423
00:15:06,310 --> 00:15:03,839
which was a that this happened uh to a

424
00:15:08,710 --> 00:15:06,320
piece 61 um a national guard pilot where

425
00:15:13,350 --> 00:15:08,720
he had a dog fight with a light uh one

426
00:15:15,910 --> 00:15:13,360
night um around his um fargo um in

427
00:15:18,150 --> 00:15:15,920
in america so this is say just like two

428
00:15:19,829 --> 00:15:18,160
weeks afterwards and the crew of uh it

429
00:15:23,350 --> 00:15:19,839
was actually kind of f61 black widow

430
00:15:25,509 --> 00:15:23,360
they changed the designation in 1947 um

431
00:15:27,590 --> 00:15:25,519
based in japan and it was involved in

432
00:15:29,829 --> 00:15:27,600
what their they described as a series of

433
00:15:31,910 --> 00:15:29,839
cat and mouse interceptions

434
00:15:34,389 --> 00:15:31,920
of what they thought was an unidentified

435
00:15:36,150 --> 00:15:34,399
radar contact now it wasn't just a radar

436
00:15:38,389 --> 00:15:36,160
contact it was actually a visual contact

437
00:15:40,710 --> 00:15:38,399
as well because the pilot saw something

438
00:15:42,629 --> 00:15:40,720
in the sky so you're looking at one of

439
00:15:46,310 --> 00:15:42,639
maybe not the first but certainly one of

440
00:15:48,389 --> 00:15:46,320
the first uh radar visual cases um in

441
00:15:50,470 --> 00:15:48,399
the kind of ufo legend

442
00:15:52,790 --> 00:15:50,480
the foo fighter cases from the war from

443
00:15:54,230 --> 00:15:52,800
the second world war were visual only

444
00:15:56,550 --> 00:15:54,240
that they were never picked up on

445
00:15:59,030 --> 00:15:56,560
airborne radar or ground radar

446
00:16:01,269 --> 00:15:59,040
um but what was kind of strange about

447
00:16:03,430 --> 00:16:01,279
this particular case was whatever they

448
00:16:05,670 --> 00:16:03,440
were chasing and whatever was sort of

449
00:16:08,710 --> 00:16:05,680
chasing them at one point

450
00:16:10,629 --> 00:16:08,720
was its ability to either dawdle around

451
00:16:13,509 --> 00:16:10,639
very very slowly at about 200 miles an

452
00:16:15,670 --> 00:16:13,519
hour um and it was almost letting the

453
00:16:17,670 --> 00:16:15,680
aircraft catch up to it and then it was

454
00:16:20,069 --> 00:16:17,680
rocket enough into the distance and they

455
00:16:22,550 --> 00:16:20,079
estimated based on the time it took to

456
00:16:25,990 --> 00:16:22,560
sort of disappear off the screen in the

457
00:16:28,150 --> 00:16:26,000
aircraft at 1 200 miles an hour which is

458
00:16:31,910 --> 00:16:28,160
really really quick and they wouldn't

459
00:16:34,389 --> 00:16:31,920
break that speed record until 1957. so

460
00:16:36,389 --> 00:16:34,399
you know you're looking at 1948 here

461
00:16:38,550 --> 00:16:36,399
there were no aircraft in the world that

462
00:16:39,269 --> 00:16:38,560
could actually do that kind of speed

463
00:16:41,829 --> 00:16:39,279
so

464
00:16:43,910 --> 00:16:41,839
that's quite notable and although it's

465
00:16:47,030 --> 00:16:43,920
not quite the same we're looking you

466
00:16:50,150 --> 00:16:47,040
know in terms of things that defy

467
00:16:51,670 --> 00:16:50,160
um known technology you're almost

468
00:16:52,790 --> 00:16:51,680
getting the tech tap territory there

469
00:16:55,670 --> 00:16:52,800
you're getting things that you have

470
00:16:58,389 --> 00:16:55,680
abrupt change of the speed can can zoom

471
00:16:59,749 --> 00:16:58,399
off at speeds which are way in advance

472
00:17:01,590 --> 00:16:59,759
of anything that the you know the

473
00:17:03,509 --> 00:17:01,600
current technology could could have

474
00:17:06,309 --> 00:17:03,519
accomplished and you're talking about a

475
00:17:08,549 --> 00:17:06,319
top speed of about 550 600 miles an hour

476
00:17:10,789 --> 00:17:08,559
back then it's not that quick even for

477
00:17:12,870 --> 00:17:10,799
the even for the sort of the the the

478
00:17:15,029 --> 00:17:12,880
late model jets back in

479
00:17:17,189 --> 00:17:15,039
in the late in the 1940s that the kind

480
00:17:19,350 --> 00:17:17,199
of p80 shooting star on the peanut or

481
00:17:21,350 --> 00:17:19,360
the f94 starfighter

482
00:17:23,590 --> 00:17:21,360
anyway so we're looking at two crew on

483
00:17:26,069 --> 00:17:23,600
board this f61 there's a pilot who was

484
00:17:28,150 --> 00:17:26,079
called oliver hempel and his radar

485
00:17:30,549 --> 00:17:28,160
operator who was called barton helter

486
00:17:32,310 --> 00:17:30,559
and in a statement that was made is

487
00:17:34,310 --> 00:17:32,320
actually made quite a lot later so

488
00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:34,320
you're looking at three months later so

489
00:17:38,870 --> 00:17:36,000
it took a long time for this information

490
00:17:41,190 --> 00:17:38,880
to come out um for various reasons which

491
00:17:43,510 --> 00:17:41,200
are unclear at this stage

492
00:17:46,070 --> 00:17:43,520
he provided an account of what he's uh

493
00:17:47,909 --> 00:17:46,080
he's piloted and he had experienced that

494
00:17:50,070 --> 00:17:47,919
night and if you don't mind vinnie i'll

495
00:17:53,190 --> 00:17:50,080
just read this out if i if that's all

496
00:17:55,350 --> 00:17:53,200
right go for it yeah yeah okay so he

497
00:17:57,110 --> 00:17:55,360
says that his present duties are radar

498
00:17:59,110 --> 00:17:57,120
and communications maintenance officer

499
00:18:02,070 --> 00:17:59,120
and the radar observer night fighter

500
00:18:05,029 --> 00:18:02,080
with a 68 fighter squadron 347 fighter

501
00:18:06,950 --> 00:18:05,039
group um 15th of october 1948 my pilot

502
00:18:09,029 --> 00:18:06,960
and i started out on a routine mission

503
00:18:11,110 --> 00:18:09,039
on the northwest coast of kyushu which

504
00:18:12,789 --> 00:18:11,120
is one of the islands in japan so it's

505
00:18:16,630 --> 00:18:12,799
the main island

506
00:18:19,830 --> 00:18:16,640
and he says when at 23.05 hours we're at

507
00:18:21,830 --> 00:18:19,840
approximately 50 miles from and he names

508
00:18:24,470 --> 00:18:21,840
a city which i can't pronounce

509
00:18:26,230 --> 00:18:24,480
um i picked up an airborne target it

510
00:18:29,190 --> 00:18:26,240
showed up with a range of five miles

511
00:18:30,950 --> 00:18:29,200
dead ahead and slightly below us so

512
00:18:32,470 --> 00:18:30,960
that's the radar operator saying that

513
00:18:33,510 --> 00:18:32,480
he's picked up something on his airborne

514
00:18:35,669 --> 00:18:33,520
radar

515
00:18:37,510 --> 00:18:35,679
he then says we increased our speed to

516
00:18:39,350 --> 00:18:37,520
approximately 220 miles an hour and

517
00:18:41,190 --> 00:18:39,360
obtained an advantage of 20 miles an

518
00:18:42,470 --> 00:18:41,200
hour so we're gaining on this object at

519
00:18:44,470 --> 00:18:42,480
20 miles an hour

520
00:18:46,070 --> 00:18:44,480
the target showed no evasive action at

521
00:18:47,590 --> 00:18:46,080
first and we thought it was probably one

522
00:18:48,789 --> 00:18:47,600
of the fighter aircraft from our home

523
00:18:50,950 --> 00:18:48,799
field

524
00:18:53,350 --> 00:18:50,960
as we closed in i noticed a slight

525
00:18:56,230 --> 00:18:53,360
change in azimuth and a rapid closure

526
00:18:58,390 --> 00:18:56,240
between us so the object had changed uh

527
00:19:00,230 --> 00:18:58,400
the way it was going and it was seem to

528
00:19:01,590 --> 00:19:00,240
be heading either slowing down or what

529
00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:01,600
was heading for them

530
00:19:03,900 --> 00:19:03,360
we dived in an attempt to follow the

531
00:19:05,669 --> 00:19:03,910
target

532
00:19:06,549 --> 00:19:05,679
[Music]

533
00:19:08,310 --> 00:19:06,559
and

534
00:19:09,830 --> 00:19:08,320
uh before we could get squared away to

535
00:19:12,710 --> 00:19:09,840
follow it it had passed beneath us and

536
00:19:13,990 --> 00:19:12,720
was gone i noticed notified by my pilot

537
00:19:15,750 --> 00:19:14,000
we're diving the rate of three and a

538
00:19:19,110 --> 00:19:15,760
half thousand feet a minute 300 miles an

539
00:19:20,549 --> 00:19:19,120
hour um and it was gone the next or

540
00:19:21,830 --> 00:19:20,559
second interception so this is the

541
00:19:23,029 --> 00:19:21,840
second one

542
00:19:24,870 --> 00:19:23,039
was real

543
00:19:27,029 --> 00:19:24,880
from the rear of the target

544
00:19:29,270 --> 00:19:27,039
again as the first but then it put on a

545
00:19:30,710 --> 00:19:29,280
burst of speed and out distanced us

546
00:19:33,990 --> 00:19:30,720
immediately

547
00:19:35,830 --> 00:19:34,000
um and then when we made another pickup

548
00:19:38,230 --> 00:19:35,840
it was so in a different distance and a

549
00:19:40,390 --> 00:19:38,240
different altitude uh so the pilot

550
00:19:42,070 --> 00:19:40,400
turned to try and head off the target to

551
00:19:43,990 --> 00:19:42,080
try and catch it up again and again

552
00:19:47,750 --> 00:19:44,000
there was a sudden burst of speed and it

553
00:19:49,430 --> 00:19:47,760
disappeared um sort of ten miles uh away

554
00:19:51,830 --> 00:19:49,440
now that was the actual outer limit of

555
00:19:54,549 --> 00:19:51,840
the scope on the aircraft which was 10

556
00:19:57,110 --> 00:19:54,559
miles for airborne targets and according

557
00:19:59,510 --> 00:19:57,120
to the radar survey uh observer um

558
00:20:00,549 --> 00:19:59,520
halter he said that it took 15 to 20

559
00:20:02,789 --> 00:20:00,559
seconds

560
00:20:05,830 --> 00:20:02,799
now if you estimate the time the dis the

561
00:20:07,430 --> 00:20:05,840
speed rather based on the 10 miles in 15

562
00:20:09,190 --> 00:20:07,440
to 20 seconds you're looking in excess

563
00:20:12,149 --> 00:20:09,200
of 1200 miles an hour

564
00:20:13,190 --> 00:20:12,159
so that's how you work that out um and

565
00:20:15,190 --> 00:20:13,200
they said

566
00:20:17,350 --> 00:20:15,200
in their opinion they were showing a new

567
00:20:21,190 --> 00:20:17,360
type of aircraft that some by some

568
00:20:23,350 --> 00:20:21,200
agency unknown to us and then there's a

569
00:20:24,789 --> 00:20:23,360
huge amount of information from the um

570
00:20:27,190 --> 00:20:24,799
from the intelligence people who looked

571
00:20:29,590 --> 00:20:27,200
at this as well um and the fact that the

572
00:20:31,590 --> 00:20:29,600
ground radars couldn't pick it up but

573
00:20:33,669 --> 00:20:31,600
the pilot had seen this thing and then

574
00:20:34,470 --> 00:20:33,679
of course it was picked on radar as well

575
00:20:36,950 --> 00:20:34,480
so

576
00:20:39,190 --> 00:20:36,960
it wasn't just it was a like a radar

577
00:20:40,470 --> 00:20:39,200
angel that the pilot had seen something

578
00:20:43,029 --> 00:20:40,480
although he couldn't work out what it

579
00:20:45,029 --> 00:20:43,039
was he could just see an object and you

580
00:20:47,750 --> 00:20:45,039
know it was it was it was slightly

581
00:20:49,430 --> 00:20:47,760
discernible um you couldn't estimate the

582
00:20:51,510 --> 00:20:49,440
size of it or whether it was jet or

583
00:20:54,710 --> 00:20:51,520
propeller driven there was no trail no

584
00:20:56,470 --> 00:20:54,720
exhaust flame um but it was also much

585
00:20:58,950 --> 00:20:56,480
much faster and much more maneuverable

586
00:21:00,710 --> 00:20:58,960
than them um they had a actually at one

587
00:21:03,430 --> 00:21:00,720
point and the pilot had a silhouette of

588
00:21:04,630 --> 00:21:03,440
the target um but you couldn't work out

589
00:21:06,230 --> 00:21:04,640
what it was because it didn't look like

590
00:21:08,149 --> 00:21:06,240
anything you'd seen before and you

591
00:21:09,430 --> 00:21:08,159
couldn't really even describe it

592
00:21:11,350 --> 00:21:09,440
and you've got a picture of it there i

593
00:21:14,789 --> 00:21:11,360
believe has sent you a picture of it yes

594
00:21:18,230 --> 00:21:17,350
so that was what you said it looked like

595
00:21:20,549 --> 00:21:18,240
and

596
00:21:21,830 --> 00:21:20,559
you know that that it's

597
00:21:23,029 --> 00:21:21,840
well

598
00:21:24,630 --> 00:21:23,039
that

599
00:21:26,390 --> 00:21:24,640
it defies description really it looks

600
00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:26,400
like an error form so you've got that

601
00:21:31,510 --> 00:21:28,480
kind of curved upper surface of like a

602
00:21:34,149 --> 00:21:31,520
wing cross section and a flat underside

603
00:21:36,470 --> 00:21:34,159
but it's terms of an object well it

604
00:21:38,230 --> 00:21:36,480
doesn't resemble anything really so but

605
00:21:40,950 --> 00:21:38,240
that was what they were chasing and what

606
00:21:42,710 --> 00:21:40,960
i distanced them very very quickly

607
00:21:44,870 --> 00:21:42,720
so it's literally that oblong shape

608
00:21:45,909 --> 00:21:44,880
thing no wings no control surfaces

609
00:21:46,789 --> 00:21:45,919
they're kind of

610
00:21:48,870 --> 00:21:46,799
i mean

611
00:21:51,029 --> 00:21:48,880
how dissimilar is that to a tic tac i

612
00:21:52,710 --> 00:21:51,039
mean it's not the the shape of a tic tac

613
00:21:54,390 --> 00:21:52,720
but it's not far off

614
00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:54,400
that's right so and this and this is

615
00:21:58,549 --> 00:21:57,520
what 48 did you say i took 48. that's

616
00:21:59,830 --> 00:21:58,559
incredible

617
00:22:00,950 --> 00:21:59,840
so you can see this in the blue book

618
00:22:02,630 --> 00:22:00,960
files

619
00:22:04,789 --> 00:22:02,640
and you can actually read um you can

620
00:22:07,430 --> 00:22:04,799
read the the interview that um

621
00:22:09,110 --> 00:22:07,440
the red observation observer gave to the

622
00:22:10,789 --> 00:22:09,120
investigators

623
00:22:12,549 --> 00:22:10,799
and you can also read the intelligence

624
00:22:14,789 --> 00:22:12,559
summary uh you know and what they

625
00:22:16,470 --> 00:22:14,799
thought as well so it's all there and if

626
00:22:17,990 --> 00:22:16,480
you read anything else you read my book

627
00:22:19,350 --> 00:22:18,000
you'll see it as well because that's

628
00:22:22,230 --> 00:22:19,360
where most of that information comes

629
00:22:24,149 --> 00:22:22,240
from um so yeah so these are things that

630
00:22:26,149 --> 00:22:24,159
were seen really early now of course

631
00:22:27,510 --> 00:22:26,159
someone might turn around and say well

632
00:22:29,830 --> 00:22:27,520
is this chinese or russian because

633
00:22:31,750 --> 00:22:29,840
that's what they talk about nowadays but

634
00:22:34,230 --> 00:22:31,760
you have to remember back in 1948 the

635
00:22:36,710 --> 00:22:34,240
chinese um you know sort of technology

636
00:22:38,149 --> 00:22:36,720
base was practically non-existent um

637
00:22:39,350 --> 00:22:38,159
they were in the middle of a civil war

638
00:22:41,990 --> 00:22:39,360
that just come out of the civil war

639
00:22:44,549 --> 00:22:42,000
rather and um you know they were

640
00:22:46,310 --> 00:22:44,559
essentially no not much further along

641
00:22:48,230 --> 00:22:46,320
than the kind of warlord culture that

642
00:22:49,909 --> 00:22:48,240
they had back then you know their

643
00:22:51,510 --> 00:22:49,919
technology based for churning out

644
00:22:52,549 --> 00:22:51,520
aircraft and weapons

645
00:22:54,149 --> 00:22:52,559
you know they were relying on other

646
00:22:55,430 --> 00:22:54,159
countries to supply them with things and

647
00:22:56,470 --> 00:22:55,440
the russians weren't in the stage then

648
00:22:58,149 --> 00:22:56,480
when they were actually given the

649
00:22:59,669 --> 00:22:58,159
chinese too much in the good in terms of

650
00:23:01,350 --> 00:22:59,679
good stuff but actually the russians

651
00:23:03,430 --> 00:23:01,360
didn't have anything like that could fly

652
00:23:05,990 --> 00:23:03,440
at that speed anyway

653
00:23:07,990 --> 00:23:06,000
they were still in the first generation

654
00:23:10,310 --> 00:23:08,000
jet fighters so you're looking at

655
00:23:12,789 --> 00:23:10,320
things like the yak 15 and the mate and

656
00:23:15,029 --> 00:23:12,799
the mig-9 which were really early types

657
00:23:17,270 --> 00:23:15,039
of jets and they were all based or the

658
00:23:18,549 --> 00:23:17,280
engines were based on german wartime

659
00:23:21,669 --> 00:23:18,559
technology they were in fact they were

660
00:23:23,350 --> 00:23:21,679
copies of german wartime turbojets and

661
00:23:24,390 --> 00:23:23,360
then you had things like the mig-15 were

662
00:23:25,590 --> 00:23:24,400
just coming along they were just

663
00:23:27,590 --> 00:23:25,600
prototypes and they were just coming

664
00:23:29,029 --> 00:23:27,600
into their first flights but you know

665
00:23:30,630 --> 00:23:29,039
you you wouldn't send them across

666
00:23:32,390 --> 00:23:30,640
somewhere like that and they they were

667
00:23:33,830 --> 00:23:32,400
kept under lock and key in the middle of

668
00:23:35,270 --> 00:23:33,840
russia so

669
00:23:37,430 --> 00:23:35,280
in terms of what these were what this

670
00:23:38,630 --> 00:23:37,440
thing was you know and it's anybody's

671
00:23:40,789 --> 00:23:38,640
guess really

672
00:23:43,029 --> 00:23:40,799
so out of all those countries and

673
00:23:44,710 --> 00:23:43,039
uh aircraft that you mentioned there

674
00:23:47,190 --> 00:23:44,720
you'd say the top speed of all of them

675
00:23:49,029 --> 00:23:47,200
or the most would be 500. well yeah you

676
00:23:50,470 --> 00:23:49,039
look at it from the estimate i mean if

677
00:23:52,549 --> 00:23:50,480
if the thick if the the fingers are

678
00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:52,559
accurate to what he said so it's like 10

679
00:23:55,669 --> 00:23:54,240
miles distance from when they when it

680
00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:55,679
where it was plotted to when it

681
00:24:00,230 --> 00:23:58,240
disappeared uh off the off the scope and

682
00:24:02,630 --> 00:24:00,240
in the time it took which was you said

683
00:24:05,029 --> 00:24:02,640
15 to 20 seconds estimated then you're

684
00:24:08,070 --> 00:24:05,039
looking at about 1200 miles an hour or

685
00:24:09,669 --> 00:24:08,080
more of it um that's let's say twice the

686
00:24:11,830 --> 00:24:09,679
speed of anything that was up in

687
00:24:12,789 --> 00:24:11,840
operational service at that particular

688
00:24:14,710 --> 00:24:12,799
time

689
00:24:16,470 --> 00:24:14,720
that's amazing listen before we jump

690
00:24:19,430 --> 00:24:16,480
onto the next case everybody in the live

691
00:24:20,870 --> 00:24:19,440
chat i am seeing your questions i think

692
00:24:23,029 --> 00:24:20,880
but if you can put them in capital

693
00:24:25,830 --> 00:24:23,039
letters i definitely are more likely to

694
00:24:28,950 --> 00:24:25,840
see them um so so far i've got jeff

695
00:24:30,470 --> 00:24:28,960
jason and vishwa i've got your questions

696
00:24:32,390 --> 00:24:30,480
in fact before we jump on to the next

697
00:24:33,909 --> 00:24:32,400
case let's jump into a couple of these

698
00:24:35,669 --> 00:24:33,919
so

699
00:24:38,710 --> 00:24:35,679
jeff says vinnie i have a question for

700
00:24:40,630 --> 00:24:38,720
graham are there any modern day hotspots

701
00:24:42,230 --> 00:24:40,640
that seem to be associated with areas of

702
00:24:43,269 --> 00:24:42,240
sightings from the world war two time

703
00:24:44,549 --> 00:24:43,279
period

704
00:24:48,390 --> 00:24:44,559
um yeah

705
00:24:50,070 --> 00:24:48,400
look at the 1990 kind of 1989 to 93 wave

706
00:24:52,950 --> 00:24:50,080
the belgian triangles

707
00:24:54,230 --> 00:24:52,960
um so that happened in a sort of part of

708
00:24:56,149 --> 00:24:54,240
well i'll see it happened over kind of

709
00:24:59,350 --> 00:24:56,159
southern belgium and you know that kind

710
00:25:01,510 --> 00:24:59,360
of area and there were some cases from

711
00:25:03,750 --> 00:25:01,520
the um from the foo fighter period of

712
00:25:05,909 --> 00:25:03,760
november to the end of the 44 to the end

713
00:25:09,350 --> 00:25:05,919
of the war that happened in that

714
00:25:12,310 --> 00:25:09,360
particular area uh with the the 422nd

715
00:25:14,630 --> 00:25:12,320
night fight squadron so yes that's one i

716
00:25:16,310 --> 00:25:14,640
can think of but then

717
00:25:18,549 --> 00:25:16,320
you look at some of the places that were

718
00:25:21,269 --> 00:25:18,559
supposedly hot spots for for wartime

719
00:25:23,110 --> 00:25:21,279
activities they're not necessarily the

720
00:25:25,029 --> 00:25:23,120
same now so you're looking at the po

721
00:25:26,870 --> 00:25:25,039
valley in northern italy that doesn't

722
00:25:29,190 --> 00:25:26,880
really feature much i mean i'm not

723
00:25:31,510 --> 00:25:29,200
actually up to speed too much on ufo

724
00:25:33,350 --> 00:25:31,520
cases in italy uh at the present so

725
00:25:35,110 --> 00:25:33,360
there may well be but it's not you know

726
00:25:36,789 --> 00:25:35,120
something that tends to to break into

727
00:25:39,190 --> 00:25:36,799
the you know more mainstream kind of

728
00:25:40,549 --> 00:25:39,200
like knowledge of um modern day ufo

729
00:25:43,110 --> 00:25:40,559
encounters so i could be wrong on that

730
00:25:45,029 --> 00:25:43,120
but i don't think i am and then the rest

731
00:25:48,149 --> 00:25:45,039
of them well there's no real hotspot

732
00:25:50,310 --> 00:25:48,159
beyond those those areas so

733
00:25:51,590 --> 00:25:50,320
you know i can't really sort of like

734
00:25:52,789 --> 00:25:51,600
sort of give you an answer for the rest

735
00:25:54,789 --> 00:25:52,799
of it

736
00:25:57,590 --> 00:25:54,799
interesting thank you thanks for the

737
00:25:59,669 --> 00:25:57,600
question jeff uh let's jump into jason's

738
00:26:02,070 --> 00:25:59,679
jason asks if there are any plans to

739
00:26:05,750 --> 00:26:02,080
narrate audiobook versions of your books

740
00:26:11,029 --> 00:26:08,390
we've got these conversations we've had

741
00:26:13,830 --> 00:26:11,039
privately i think i think it comes down

742
00:26:14,789 --> 00:26:13,840
to um being able to do it and be able to

743
00:26:17,110 --> 00:26:14,799
actually

744
00:26:18,870 --> 00:26:17,120
sort of feel um kind of the technology

745
00:26:20,789 --> 00:26:18,880
being there to for me to be comfortable

746
00:26:23,510 --> 00:26:20,799
with doing it and also getting people to

747
00:26:25,350 --> 00:26:23,520
help because uh my voice isn't great to

748
00:26:26,950 --> 00:26:25,360
be able to nobody's gonna understand me

749
00:26:30,230 --> 00:26:26,960
uh if we'll get andy doing it then we're

750
00:26:32,149 --> 00:26:30,240
gonna need subtitles um

751
00:26:33,029 --> 00:26:32,159
sorry andy

752
00:26:33,990 --> 00:26:33,039
um

753
00:26:36,149 --> 00:26:34,000
so

754
00:26:39,269 --> 00:26:36,159
you know it it will i'm sure it'll

755
00:26:40,870 --> 00:26:39,279
happen one day jason um but i'm maybe

756
00:26:42,950 --> 00:26:40,880
not right at this moment but yeah it'd

757
00:26:45,909 --> 00:26:42,960
be a lovely thing to have

758
00:26:47,750 --> 00:26:45,919
the foo fighter book mind it's 550 pages

759
00:26:49,669 --> 00:26:47,760
that would take a very very long time

760
00:26:51,750 --> 00:26:49,679
and the chapters are quite long whereas

761
00:26:53,750 --> 00:26:51,760
the dawn of the flying saucers

762
00:26:55,830 --> 00:26:53,760
is probably an ideal one to start

763
00:26:58,549 --> 00:26:55,840
because the chapters are much much

764
00:27:00,390 --> 00:26:58,559
shorter and they're more punchy so

765
00:27:04,070 --> 00:27:00,400
yeah how many chapters are there in the

766
00:27:05,269 --> 00:27:04,080
foo fighter book uh 18 or 19.

767
00:27:06,789 --> 00:27:05,279
so here's here's something like that

768
00:27:08,470 --> 00:27:06,799
some of them are somewhere quite long

769
00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:08,480
though

770
00:27:12,230 --> 00:27:10,000
you're talking about like you know 70 or

771
00:27:13,990 --> 00:27:12,240
80 pages some of the chapters

772
00:27:16,870 --> 00:27:14,000
so here's the thing you know here's an

773
00:27:18,870 --> 00:27:16,880
idea he gets however 18

774
00:27:20,630 --> 00:27:18,880
separate members of the ufo community to

775
00:27:21,990 --> 00:27:20,640
do a chapter each

776
00:27:23,190 --> 00:27:22,000
i mean what do people think i'd love to

777
00:27:25,110 --> 00:27:23,200
know what people think

778
00:27:27,430 --> 00:27:25,120
would you like listening to

779
00:27:29,029 --> 00:27:27,440
loads of people you you know talking or

780
00:27:30,950 --> 00:27:29,039
do you want one person doing the whole

781
00:27:33,110 --> 00:27:30,960
book and actually if if that was the

782
00:27:35,029 --> 00:27:33,120
case who would you want to narrate them

783
00:27:36,630 --> 00:27:35,039
now don't say ross because he would just

784
00:27:38,549 --> 00:27:36,640
do the voices for all of them and he

785
00:27:41,269 --> 00:27:38,559
could do 18 different voices and

786
00:27:42,870 --> 00:27:41,279
probably nobody would be the wiser

787
00:27:44,389 --> 00:27:42,880
absolutely but

788
00:27:46,389 --> 00:27:44,399
yeah so hopefully in the future we'll

789
00:27:48,470 --> 00:27:46,399
get there the audios

790
00:27:50,950 --> 00:27:48,480
vishwas question uh would something like

791
00:27:52,070 --> 00:27:50,960
render some forest be mod u.s pentagon

792
00:27:54,470 --> 00:27:52,080
or both

793
00:27:55,830 --> 00:27:54,480
well there's a 64 thousand dollar

794
00:27:58,470 --> 00:27:55,840
question it's like the calvi so we're

795
00:28:00,470 --> 00:27:58,480
gonna go about this we're gonna calvin

796
00:28:03,750 --> 00:28:00,480
you know the jury's out on that a lot of

797
00:28:06,789 --> 00:28:03,760
people say well yes it's some secret u.s

798
00:28:08,549 --> 00:28:06,799
technology and i can be swayed that way

799
00:28:10,310 --> 00:28:08,559
but equally if you're looking at things

800
00:28:11,990 --> 00:28:10,320
that hover in mid-air and then zoom off

801
00:28:13,430 --> 00:28:12,000
into the you know into the stratosphere

802
00:28:15,110 --> 00:28:13,440
at a rate of nuts

803
00:28:16,630 --> 00:28:15,120
can we build that kind of technology and

804
00:28:18,870 --> 00:28:16,640
if so why isn't it you know in

805
00:28:21,269 --> 00:28:18,880
circulation 32 years later and you could

806
00:28:23,350 --> 00:28:21,279
look at the same religion um which was

807
00:28:26,230 --> 00:28:23,360
even earlier so why hasn't that

808
00:28:28,630 --> 00:28:26,240
technology appeared so there's

809
00:28:30,310 --> 00:28:28,640
no grounds to sort of suspect it might

810
00:28:31,669 --> 00:28:30,320
be but equally there's things on the

811
00:28:33,029 --> 00:28:31,679
other side of the argument that say well

812
00:28:34,870 --> 00:28:33,039
no because surely this would have

813
00:28:37,350 --> 00:28:34,880
happened by now so

814
00:28:38,870 --> 00:28:37,360
i'm sorry i can't i can't say one way or

815
00:28:41,350 --> 00:28:38,880
another we just don't have enough

816
00:28:44,310 --> 00:28:41,360
information at this stage to to say yes

817
00:28:45,510 --> 00:28:44,320
or to say no um so more digging is

818
00:28:47,190 --> 00:28:45,520
needed

819
00:28:49,269 --> 00:28:47,200
but am i right in saying when i know for

820
00:28:49,909 --> 00:28:49,279
sure that renders features heavily in

821
00:29:03,190 --> 00:28:49,919
the

822
00:29:04,230 --> 00:29:03,200
rendersham as well because it was a

823
00:29:08,710 --> 00:29:04,240
joint

824
00:29:09,990 --> 00:29:08,720
yeah there is information out there but

825
00:29:11,669 --> 00:29:10,000
there's certainly no answers at the

826
00:29:13,669 --> 00:29:11,679
moment unfortunately

827
00:29:16,149 --> 00:29:13,679
but thanks for the question anyway and

828
00:29:18,630 --> 00:29:16,159
uh yeah let's uh so we move on to the

829
00:29:19,990 --> 00:29:18,640
next next please

830
00:29:21,350 --> 00:29:20,000
let's bring up

831
00:29:22,310 --> 00:29:21,360
this image

832
00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:22,320
and

833
00:29:26,710 --> 00:29:24,640
jump right in there we go

834
00:29:29,510 --> 00:29:26,720
so we have a martin mariner flying boat

835
00:29:31,350 --> 00:29:29,520
and this is the u.s navy so this is i'll

836
00:29:33,510 --> 00:29:31,360
see the major thing at the moment is to

837
00:29:35,350 --> 00:29:33,520
do with u.s navy encounters off the west

838
00:29:38,389 --> 00:29:35,360
coast and east coast of america with the

839
00:29:40,630 --> 00:29:38,399
tic tacs and with um cubes inside

840
00:29:42,630 --> 00:29:40,640
spheres and all the rest of it now us

841
00:29:44,630 --> 00:29:42,640
navy encounters with strange things go

842
00:29:47,830 --> 00:29:44,640
back to actually world war ii but this

843
00:29:50,870 --> 00:29:47,840
is a one uh from 1951 now this appears

844
00:29:53,830 --> 00:29:50,880
in uh flying saucer fever um so we're

845
00:29:56,070 --> 00:29:53,840
looking at november 1951 and this is in

846
00:29:58,149 --> 00:29:56,080
the yellow sea so again we're off china

847
00:30:00,470 --> 00:29:58,159
um and this is a flying a long-range

848
00:30:02,789 --> 00:30:00,480
flying boat on a maritime patrol

849
00:30:04,630 --> 00:30:02,799
basically sort of flying along the you

850
00:30:07,350 --> 00:30:04,640
know the sort of the maritime border

851
00:30:09,909 --> 00:30:07,360
with china if you like out to sea

852
00:30:13,590 --> 00:30:09,919
um but it's also a position which is

853
00:30:16,230 --> 00:30:13,600
equidistant uh between china north korea

854
00:30:18,389 --> 00:30:16,240
um and you know somewhere in japan as

855
00:30:21,350 --> 00:30:18,399
well so it's a kind of flash point area

856
00:30:23,350 --> 00:30:21,360
and of course november 1951 slap bang in

857
00:30:24,310 --> 00:30:23,360
the middle of the korean war

858
00:30:27,350 --> 00:30:24,320
so

859
00:30:29,269 --> 00:30:27,360
naturally um aircraft based in japan in

860
00:30:31,269 --> 00:30:29,279
japan and also south korea are going to

861
00:30:32,549 --> 00:30:31,279
be on patrol looking for targets of

862
00:30:34,149 --> 00:30:32,559
opportunity because the chinese are

863
00:30:36,789 --> 00:30:34,159
already in the war by then

864
00:30:38,230 --> 00:30:36,799
so we have this particular statement

865
00:30:40,789 --> 00:30:38,240
that was sent to the headquarters the

866
00:30:44,070 --> 00:30:40,799
far eastern air force uh which was based

867
00:30:46,389 --> 00:30:44,080
in japan um and this was forwarded to

868
00:30:49,750 --> 00:30:46,399
the director of intelligence of the u.s

869
00:30:50,789 --> 00:30:49,760
air force uh on the 12th november 1951

870
00:30:52,630 --> 00:30:50,799
and it

871
00:30:55,350 --> 00:30:52,640
it reads this switch there's only three

872
00:30:58,389 --> 00:30:55,360
paragraphs a waste gunner

873
00:31:00,389 --> 00:30:58,399
on lookout duty at an open waist hatch

874
00:31:02,830 --> 00:31:00,399
cited a light on the port side and

875
00:31:06,389 --> 00:31:02,840
modded and notified the patrol plane

876
00:31:08,149 --> 00:31:06,399
commander the ppc patrol plane commander

877
00:31:09,909 --> 00:31:08,159
saw the light and brought the contact to

878
00:31:12,630 --> 00:31:09,919
the attention of the crew which verified

879
00:31:14,950 --> 00:31:12,640
its existence the radar man conf

880
00:31:17,029 --> 00:31:14,960
confirmed the contact reporting the

881
00:31:18,710 --> 00:31:17,039
distance as 12 miles

882
00:31:21,350 --> 00:31:18,720
the light appeared to be a long

883
00:31:23,830 --> 00:31:21,360
conically shaped flame suggesting the

884
00:31:26,149 --> 00:31:23,840
exhaust of a reaction type motor such as

885
00:31:29,110 --> 00:31:26,159
a rocket or a ramjet

886
00:31:31,029 --> 00:31:29,120
the size shape and colour of the flame

887
00:31:32,389 --> 00:31:31,039
seemed to vary during the period of

888
00:31:34,149 --> 00:31:32,399
observation

889
00:31:36,630 --> 00:31:34,159
originally the flame appeared to be

890
00:31:38,549 --> 00:31:36,640
short with a red orange hue

891
00:31:40,710 --> 00:31:38,559
later the flame became longer with a

892
00:31:43,269 --> 00:31:40,720
colour changing to a white orange hue

893
00:31:45,430 --> 00:31:43,279
apparently after power of added

894
00:31:47,509 --> 00:31:45,440
so that again they picked it on radar

895
00:31:48,789 --> 00:31:47,519
but they also saw it

896
00:31:51,110 --> 00:31:48,799
um

897
00:31:53,350 --> 00:31:51,120
the the plane uh the patrol plane

898
00:31:55,190 --> 00:31:53,360
commander turned left towards the

899
00:31:56,950 --> 00:31:55,200
contact attempting to silhouette the

900
00:31:59,590 --> 00:31:56,960
craft against the moon

901
00:32:01,350 --> 00:31:59,600
in order to photograph it evidently the

902
00:32:03,990 --> 00:32:01,360
craft turned away maintaining the

903
00:32:05,430 --> 00:32:04,000
distance of 12 miles so a photograph was

904
00:32:08,310 --> 00:32:05,440
not obtained

905
00:32:09,190 --> 00:32:08,320
consequently and then the name the the

906
00:32:10,710 --> 00:32:09,200
the the

907
00:32:12,470 --> 00:32:10,720
the commander

908
00:32:14,630 --> 00:32:12,480
increased the power setting to rated

909
00:32:17,190 --> 00:32:14,640
power in order to close the range radar

910
00:32:19,110 --> 00:32:17,200
contact was lost but visual contact was

911
00:32:21,029 --> 00:32:19,120
maintained until the estimated range

912
00:32:22,630 --> 00:32:21,039
became three or four miles

913
00:32:24,630 --> 00:32:22,640
meanwhile the crew was able to observe

914
00:32:26,230 --> 00:32:24,640
the body of the crap visually

915
00:32:28,070 --> 00:32:26,240
while in addition the commander was able

916
00:32:29,830 --> 00:32:28,080
to observe the wing shape so that this

917
00:32:31,430 --> 00:32:29,840
thing actually does have wings

918
00:32:32,710 --> 00:32:31,440
or these seems to have wings using

919
00:32:34,630 --> 00:32:32,720
binoculars

920
00:32:37,269 --> 00:32:34,640
the hole was very large estimated to be

921
00:32:39,669 --> 00:32:37,279
60 feet long the wings were swept back

922
00:32:42,470 --> 00:32:39,679
and down with a dihedral at the tips

923
00:32:44,950 --> 00:32:42,480
bending approximately 85 percent of the

924
00:32:47,430 --> 00:32:44,960
wing length there was no empanadas which

925
00:32:49,029 --> 00:32:47,440
means a tail uh that wasn't there and

926
00:32:51,110 --> 00:32:49,039
the craft appeared to be flying at what

927
00:32:53,350 --> 00:32:51,120
they called a high angle of attack so if

928
00:32:55,909 --> 00:32:53,360
you can imagine um that means that

929
00:32:57,990 --> 00:32:55,919
basically that it's nose up so it's like

930
00:33:00,630 --> 00:32:58,000
that it's flying along like this yeah

931
00:33:02,070 --> 00:33:00,640
weird that's that's what that means and

932
00:33:04,310 --> 00:33:02,080
you'll see in a minute when you when you

933
00:33:05,990 --> 00:33:04,320
pull up the the the diagrams which i

934
00:33:07,669 --> 00:33:06,000
sent you as well but i'll just there's

935
00:33:09,669 --> 00:33:07,679
only a few more lines here

936
00:33:11,350 --> 00:33:09,679
um and he says um

937
00:33:13,750 --> 00:33:11,360
the flight the flight altitude so this

938
00:33:15,750 --> 00:33:13,760
high angle attack suggested a high speed

939
00:33:18,230 --> 00:33:15,760
plane staggering to keep airborne at all

940
00:33:20,470 --> 00:33:18,240
at a slow speed so in other words they

941
00:33:22,950 --> 00:33:20,480
thought it might be like a jet fighter

942
00:33:25,350 --> 00:33:22,960
but having to slow down enough to keep

943
00:33:26,630 --> 00:33:25,360
up with or or to keep station on the

944
00:33:28,950 --> 00:33:26,640
flying boat because the flying blow is

945
00:33:30,870 --> 00:33:28,960
quite slow whereas a jet fighter if it

946
00:33:32,710 --> 00:33:30,880
gets to a certain slur a very slow speed

947
00:33:34,149 --> 00:33:32,720
it could stall and fall out the air and

948
00:33:35,990 --> 00:33:34,159
the best thing you do is you basically

949
00:33:38,470 --> 00:33:36,000
pitch the nose up and that's you know

950
00:33:40,070 --> 00:33:38,480
how you keep sort of flying um

951
00:33:41,750 --> 00:33:40,080
in an aircraft like that at least that's

952
00:33:42,950 --> 00:33:41,760
what they suspected

953
00:33:45,110 --> 00:33:42,960
um

954
00:33:47,190 --> 00:33:45,120
and then the last bit is the craft

955
00:33:50,149 --> 00:33:47,200
accelerated slowly increasing the range

956
00:33:52,470 --> 00:33:50,159
to 16 miles as indicated by radar it

957
00:33:55,590 --> 00:33:52,480
then accelerated rapidly to a range of

958
00:33:58,230 --> 00:33:55,600
22 miles when contact was lost

959
00:34:00,870 --> 00:33:58,240
um visual contact was then also lost to

960
00:34:03,190 --> 00:34:00,880
the clouds along actually 16 minutes

961
00:34:05,750 --> 00:34:03,200
after the initial contact the computer

962
00:34:08,069 --> 00:34:05,760
the speed of the aircraft was 530 knots

963
00:34:10,550 --> 00:34:08,079
for the period just before conduct lost

964
00:34:12,310 --> 00:34:10,560
so it's a lot slower than the one that

965
00:34:13,109 --> 00:34:12,320
was seen off japan

966
00:34:14,950 --> 00:34:13,119
but

967
00:34:16,230 --> 00:34:14,960
if you can possibly pull up the first

968
00:34:18,230 --> 00:34:16,240
with the images

969
00:34:19,829 --> 00:34:18,240
that i sent you so in the blue book

970
00:34:22,069 --> 00:34:19,839
documentation we've got a couple of

971
00:34:24,470 --> 00:34:22,079
plans of and these are the the sketches

972
00:34:27,510 --> 00:34:24,480
of what the what they said they saw

973
00:34:29,109 --> 00:34:27,520
um now this one yeah okay so you can see

974
00:34:30,790 --> 00:34:29,119
the out the general outline you can see

975
00:34:32,310 --> 00:34:30,800
these wings with it with the the

976
00:34:35,109 --> 00:34:32,320
dihedral so that's like the down

977
00:34:37,030 --> 00:34:35,119
slightly downward uh facing uh pointing

978
00:34:39,589 --> 00:34:37,040
wings sorry and then these little kind

979
00:34:41,270 --> 00:34:39,599
of wing tips that pointed upwards

980
00:34:43,829 --> 00:34:41,280
uh if you just pop the next one up

981
00:34:47,510 --> 00:34:45,750
and then this one here and this shows

982
00:34:49,430 --> 00:34:47,520
you what the reckoned

983
00:34:51,909 --> 00:34:49,440
it might have been so you can see the

984
00:34:54,230 --> 00:34:51,919
bottom right there um and that's pretty

985
00:34:55,909 --> 00:34:54,240
much from the previous um previous

986
00:34:58,390 --> 00:34:55,919
drawing and then they tried to compare

987
00:35:01,510 --> 00:34:58,400
it to a mig-15 which is a soviet jet

988
00:35:03,030 --> 00:35:01,520
fighter now in some respects yes it does

989
00:35:05,750 --> 00:35:03,040
look quite similar

990
00:35:06,630 --> 00:35:05,760
and without the tail you know it could

991
00:35:07,990 --> 00:35:06,640
be

992
00:35:10,550 --> 00:35:08,000
and actually in my book i do have a

993
00:35:13,430 --> 00:35:10,560
picture of a mig-15 from behind

994
00:35:15,190 --> 00:35:13,440
which is shot by a u.s air force um jet

995
00:35:17,510 --> 00:35:15,200
fighter gun camera as it was about to

996
00:35:20,069 --> 00:35:17,520
shoot one down um so you could see that

997
00:35:21,510 --> 00:35:20,079
you know that's quite accurate um

998
00:35:23,030 --> 00:35:21,520
did i send you a picture of a big 50 and

999
00:35:25,030 --> 00:35:23,040
i think i did so

1000
00:35:26,870 --> 00:35:25,040
yeah yeah so one somebody can see what

1001
00:35:30,310 --> 00:35:26,880
it looks like if they're not familiar

1002
00:35:32,710 --> 00:35:30,320
um there we go so that's a that's a

1003
00:35:34,310 --> 00:35:32,720
soviet picture of the move 15. and this

1004
00:35:36,710 --> 00:35:34,320
is a this is like a kind of second

1005
00:35:40,470 --> 00:35:36,720
generation mig um jet fighter for for

1006
00:35:42,710 --> 00:35:40,480
the russians it was um based on um well

1007
00:35:45,190 --> 00:35:42,720
it was their own design it was based on

1008
00:35:48,069 --> 00:35:45,200
some german technology about sweat wings

1009
00:35:50,310 --> 00:35:48,079
and uh if the labor government hadn't

1010
00:35:52,710 --> 00:35:50,320
supplied some jet engines to the

1011
00:35:55,510 --> 00:35:52,720
russians under some misguided agreement

1012
00:35:57,030 --> 00:35:55,520
in whenever it was 46 or 47 then they

1013
00:35:59,349 --> 00:35:57,040
would never have the technology to build

1014
00:36:01,270 --> 00:35:59,359
upon to build this aircraft also the

1015
00:36:03,510 --> 00:36:01,280
story goes anyway

1016
00:36:05,430 --> 00:36:03,520
the chinese got some of these about the

1017
00:36:07,670 --> 00:36:05,440
time this happened and of course the

1018
00:36:09,270 --> 00:36:07,680
chinese were all outside the chinese

1019
00:36:11,589 --> 00:36:09,280
were also supplying aircraft to the

1020
00:36:12,950 --> 00:36:11,599
north koreans and also the russians were

1021
00:36:14,790 --> 00:36:12,960
supplying these aircraft to the north

1022
00:36:17,190 --> 00:36:14,800
koreans as well and even supplying the

1023
00:36:18,710 --> 00:36:17,200
pilots to fight against the americans

1024
00:36:20,870 --> 00:36:18,720
which it wasn't something that was known

1025
00:36:21,990 --> 00:36:20,880
until you know maybe 20 30 years ago

1026
00:36:23,190 --> 00:36:22,000
kind of thing

1027
00:36:25,349 --> 00:36:23,200
so

1028
00:36:27,910 --> 00:36:25,359
they were in the skies over korea but

1029
00:36:30,230 --> 00:36:27,920
were they over the middle of the sea

1030
00:36:32,870 --> 00:36:30,240
now you had to do some kind of creative

1031
00:36:34,310 --> 00:36:32,880
thinking to to work this out but if you

1032
00:36:36,310 --> 00:36:34,320
worked out the kind of endurance of the

1033
00:36:37,270 --> 00:36:36,320
mig-15 and the speeds and all the rest

1034
00:36:38,950 --> 00:36:37,280
of it

1035
00:36:40,470 --> 00:36:38,960
it wouldn't have had much flying time to

1036
00:36:42,150 --> 00:36:40,480
be able to get out there from the

1037
00:36:45,270 --> 00:36:42,160
nearest base in china or the nearest

1038
00:36:47,670 --> 00:36:45,280
base in north korea it was just too far

1039
00:36:49,589 --> 00:36:47,680
um also the size of the thing was twice

1040
00:36:51,270 --> 00:36:49,599
the size of the mig-15 and mig-50 was

1041
00:36:53,349 --> 00:36:51,280
about 33 foot long this thing was

1042
00:36:55,109 --> 00:36:53,359
estimated at 60.

1043
00:36:56,550 --> 00:36:55,119
so it was mo it was you know it was

1044
00:37:00,150 --> 00:36:56,560
twice the size

1045
00:37:03,750 --> 00:37:00,160
and a mig 15 stalled at about 120 knots

1046
00:37:05,910 --> 00:37:03,760
um so yes okay if the pilot had been

1047
00:37:07,990 --> 00:37:05,920
nose up tried to keep out with a stall

1048
00:37:09,670 --> 00:37:08,000
it could have done it but then it would

1049
00:37:12,710 --> 00:37:09,680
have been using quite a lot of fuel up

1050
00:37:14,069 --> 00:37:12,720
as well um a mig-15 carried about 450

1051
00:37:15,750 --> 00:37:14,079
gallons of field with even with the

1052
00:37:16,550 --> 00:37:15,760
external tanks that the drop tanks if

1053
00:37:18,550 --> 00:37:16,560
you like

1054
00:37:20,710 --> 00:37:18,560
burned it at about five gallons a minute

1055
00:37:22,310 --> 00:37:20,720
so that that was about 45 minutes in

1056
00:37:24,069 --> 00:37:22,320
june so that's how much time it had in

1057
00:37:26,310 --> 00:37:24,079
the air from takeoff to landing or

1058
00:37:29,349 --> 00:37:26,320
falling out the sky whichever came first

1059
00:37:30,550 --> 00:37:29,359
um but this sighting lasted for 15

1060
00:37:32,550 --> 00:37:30,560
minutes

1061
00:37:34,470 --> 00:37:32,560
so you would have to like the pilot

1062
00:37:37,430 --> 00:37:34,480
would have to take off from china would

1063
00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:37,440
have to fly across the ocean um meet up

1064
00:37:41,190 --> 00:37:39,680
with this aircraft and then

1065
00:37:43,349 --> 00:37:41,200
they said it rocketed off into the

1066
00:37:45,030 --> 00:37:43,359
distance you know it it disappeared off

1067
00:37:47,750 --> 00:37:45,040
the off from visual and also from the

1068
00:37:49,109 --> 00:37:47,760
radar quite quickly um so it burned

1069
00:37:51,349 --> 00:37:49,119
quite a lot of fuel off that way so

1070
00:37:53,109 --> 00:37:51,359
that's not fuel efficient and then even

1071
00:37:54,710 --> 00:37:53,119
by the time you got back to base given

1072
00:37:56,150 --> 00:37:54,720
the distance and the time you'd have

1073
00:37:58,310 --> 00:37:56,160
been on fumes

1074
00:38:00,069 --> 00:37:58,320
if not falling in the sea so it wasn't

1075
00:38:02,390 --> 00:38:00,079
something that was realistic

1076
00:38:04,310 --> 00:38:02,400
uh back then anyway and also those early

1077
00:38:07,190 --> 00:38:04,320
aircraft didn't have onboard radar and

1078
00:38:10,150 --> 00:38:07,200
the chinese did not have uh radar to be

1079
00:38:11,589 --> 00:38:10,160
able to guide planes back into landings

1080
00:38:13,990 --> 00:38:11,599
um you know

1081
00:38:15,349 --> 00:38:14,000
so it's it's you know people

1082
00:38:17,109 --> 00:38:15,359
some people have said in the past that

1083
00:38:17,990 --> 00:38:17,119
this might have been a big 15. and

1084
00:38:19,910 --> 00:38:18,000
clearly

1085
00:38:21,349 --> 00:38:19,920
the intelligence people thought that

1086
00:38:23,109 --> 00:38:21,359
might be what it was because they came

1087
00:38:24,630 --> 00:38:23,119
up with that comparison but when you

1088
00:38:26,470 --> 00:38:24,640
look when you drill down into the

1089
00:38:28,790 --> 00:38:26,480
information and try and work out which

1090
00:38:31,430 --> 00:38:28,800
such thing was feasible it wasn't one of

1091
00:38:34,710 --> 00:38:31,440
these so question is what was it

1092
00:38:36,069 --> 00:38:34,720
and that's the 64 000 question again

1093
00:38:38,390 --> 00:38:36,079
it's something that just can't be

1094
00:38:39,910 --> 00:38:38,400
reconciled with anything back then

1095
00:38:41,589 --> 00:38:39,920
the funny thing that got me then is that

1096
00:38:43,829 --> 00:38:41,599
you said that they had radar contact at

1097
00:38:46,230 --> 00:38:43,839
about 12 nautical miles was that right

1098
00:38:47,910 --> 00:38:46,240
but then as they closed to three or four

1099
00:38:49,829 --> 00:38:47,920
they lost it

1100
00:38:52,069 --> 00:38:49,839
that that could be down to the vagaries

1101
00:38:53,750 --> 00:38:52,079
of the the kind of system involved or it

1102
00:38:54,870 --> 00:38:53,760
could be this could be spoofing it could

1103
00:38:56,550 --> 00:38:54,880
be anything it could be a range of

1104
00:38:58,390 --> 00:38:56,560
things why they lost contact but they

1105
00:39:00,230 --> 00:38:58,400
did also re-establish it because as it

1106
00:39:01,829 --> 00:39:00,240
went away they still had it on radar

1107
00:39:03,910 --> 00:39:01,839
until they finally it finally broke

1108
00:39:05,589 --> 00:39:03,920
contract so

1109
00:39:07,990 --> 00:39:05,599
there's various things happening here

1110
00:39:09,190 --> 00:39:08,000
but yes as you say visual contact was

1111
00:39:11,030 --> 00:39:09,200
maintained

1112
00:39:13,190 --> 00:39:11,040
three or four miles away and radar

1113
00:39:15,829 --> 00:39:13,200
contact was lost but they were still

1114
00:39:17,589 --> 00:39:15,839
able to actually see it visually so was

1115
00:39:19,109 --> 00:39:17,599
it what whatever it was was it jamming

1116
00:39:21,190 --> 00:39:19,119
the aircraft was it you know spoofing

1117
00:39:22,630 --> 00:39:21,200
the radar somehow or was it some other

1118
00:39:25,349 --> 00:39:22,640
factor that meant that they'd lost it

1119
00:39:27,589 --> 00:39:25,359
was a intermittent glitch you know

1120
00:39:29,349 --> 00:39:27,599
it's not clear on the records i'm afraid

1121
00:39:31,030 --> 00:39:29,359
but you know that's

1122
00:39:33,030 --> 00:39:31,040
unfortunately with the best will in the

1123
00:39:35,190 --> 00:39:33,040
world sometimes you're only kind of you

1124
00:39:37,430 --> 00:39:35,200
know all you've got to go on is what

1125
00:39:39,589 --> 00:39:37,440
they say at the time and sometimes there

1126
00:39:41,589 --> 00:39:39,599
are follow-up questions that um the

1127
00:39:43,829 --> 00:39:41,599
intelligence people when they're you

1128
00:39:45,270 --> 00:39:43,839
know interrogating the witnesses or they

1129
00:39:46,950 --> 00:39:45,280
come back to it later on sometimes

1130
00:39:48,630 --> 00:39:46,960
there's follow-up questions and go back

1131
00:39:49,910 --> 00:39:48,640
to the squadrons concerned in this case

1132
00:39:52,069 --> 00:39:49,920
not

1133
00:39:53,190 --> 00:39:52,079
wow it's a fascinating case

1134
00:39:54,390 --> 00:39:53,200
and that's the thing there are just

1135
00:39:56,710 --> 00:39:54,400
things that just

1136
00:39:58,630 --> 00:39:56,720
it's not prosec or the explanation's not

1137
00:40:00,470 --> 00:39:58,640
prosaic and you can't quite figure out

1138
00:40:03,030 --> 00:40:00,480
well somebody somewhere the chat yes

1139
00:40:05,430 --> 00:40:03,040
says they're imitating our tech and i

1140
00:40:07,030 --> 00:40:05,440
mean yeah as a possible scenario that of

1141
00:40:09,670 --> 00:40:07,040
course that's possible we just don't

1142
00:40:11,270 --> 00:40:09,680
know um but you know you people talk

1143
00:40:13,349 --> 00:40:11,280
about um you know these missiles that

1144
00:40:16,230 --> 00:40:13,359
have been seen in america that are

1145
00:40:17,589 --> 00:40:16,240
flying near airliners um and

1146
00:40:19,670 --> 00:40:17,599
some people are saying well they might

1147
00:40:21,589 --> 00:40:19,680
just be imitating those you know there

1148
00:40:23,670 --> 00:40:21,599
wouldn't be testing missiles in a place

1149
00:40:26,069 --> 00:40:23,680
next to commercial airliner routes

1150
00:40:28,550 --> 00:40:26,079
so you know anything's really possible

1151
00:40:31,750 --> 00:40:28,560
amazing we've got a few more

1152
00:40:33,910 --> 00:40:31,760
questions here uh joss is the first one

1153
00:40:35,510 --> 00:40:33,920
so graham there was a case between 68

1154
00:40:37,349 --> 00:40:35,520
and 70 above the atlantic of a

1155
00:40:40,150 --> 00:40:37,359
commercial plane followed by a big

1156
00:40:41,990 --> 00:40:40,160
yellow orb it even made dutch tv like

1157
00:40:43,430 --> 00:40:42,000
panorama here in holland but i can't

1158
00:40:45,910 --> 00:40:43,440
find anything are you familiar with that

1159
00:40:47,829 --> 00:40:45,920
one i'm not i'm afraid but it sounds

1160
00:40:49,589 --> 00:40:47,839
intriguing

1161
00:40:50,870 --> 00:40:49,599
i've made a mental note of it thank you

1162
00:40:52,309 --> 00:40:50,880
josh

1163
00:40:54,069 --> 00:40:52,319
yeah you've got a little way to go

1164
00:40:55,990 --> 00:40:54,079
before you hit the late 60s and early

1165
00:40:58,470 --> 00:40:56,000
70s yeah but that doesn't stop me

1166
00:41:00,390 --> 00:40:58,480
looking at things true yeah

1167
00:41:02,550 --> 00:41:00,400
no absolutely so yeah joss if you come

1168
00:41:04,150 --> 00:41:02,560
across anything about that please

1169
00:41:06,630 --> 00:41:04,160
please send it to me

1170
00:41:08,150 --> 00:41:06,640
yeah you know where um i've got a

1171
00:41:10,470 --> 00:41:08,160
question from elena but i might leave

1172
00:41:13,589 --> 00:41:10,480
that one tool towards the end because i

1173
00:41:16,630 --> 00:41:13,599
think that's a really interesting one so

1174
00:41:18,710 --> 00:41:16,640
let me just check yeah let's move on to

1175
00:41:20,550 --> 00:41:18,720
the next case

1176
00:41:22,150 --> 00:41:20,560
and this is one that i requested you to

1177
00:41:23,190 --> 00:41:22,160
to discuss because this is something

1178
00:41:24,630 --> 00:41:23,200
i've been

1179
00:41:26,710 --> 00:41:24,640
looking into but i only kind of touched

1180
00:41:28,870 --> 00:41:26,720
upon recently so i've got quite a lot

1181
00:41:30,710 --> 00:41:28,880
more to dig in on this so

1182
00:41:32,630 --> 00:41:30,720
uh shall i bring the the gentleman on

1183
00:41:35,510 --> 00:41:32,640
the screen or do you want to start the

1184
00:41:37,430 --> 00:41:35,520
story first um yeah put the gentleman on

1185
00:41:38,870 --> 00:41:37,440
the screen that's fine

1186
00:41:40,950 --> 00:41:38,880
i'll put the aircraft up first which i

1187
00:41:43,910 --> 00:41:40,960
was no no that's fine so the guy on the

1188
00:41:45,510 --> 00:41:43,920
right is called uh he's called uh swiney

1189
00:41:46,950 --> 00:41:45,520
it's the way the spell we're we're not

1190
00:41:48,630 --> 00:41:46,960
very sure where to swing your swiney

1191
00:41:49,589 --> 00:41:48,640
because it's spelled with one end it's

1192
00:41:52,390 --> 00:41:49,599
presumed

1193
00:41:53,589 --> 00:41:52,400
swiney so he's flight lieutenant mj e

1194
00:41:55,750 --> 00:41:53,599
swiney

1195
00:41:58,470 --> 00:41:55,760
and he's an instructor with the uh

1196
00:42:01,109 --> 00:41:58,480
central flying school which um are based

1197
00:42:02,230 --> 00:42:01,119
in in england uh at raf little

1198
00:42:04,069 --> 00:42:02,240
richington which is actually in

1199
00:42:05,990 --> 00:42:04,079
gloucester gloucestershire so it's down

1200
00:42:08,870 --> 00:42:06,000
southwest of england

1201
00:42:11,349 --> 00:42:08,880
and really the only kind of reference to

1202
00:42:14,630 --> 00:42:11,359
this case is buried away in the national

1203
00:42:16,150 --> 00:42:14,640
archives in london and you have to find

1204
00:42:18,150 --> 00:42:16,160
it within what's called the operational

1205
00:42:20,230 --> 00:42:18,160
record books that's a kind of like a

1206
00:42:22,710 --> 00:42:20,240
diary if you like it's an official diary

1207
00:42:25,589 --> 00:42:22,720
for the second flying school themselves

1208
00:42:27,750 --> 00:42:25,599
um most raf squadrons flights or

1209
00:42:29,829 --> 00:42:27,760
operational training units etc actually

1210
00:42:31,190 --> 00:42:29,839
have what they call an orb which is an

1211
00:42:34,390 --> 00:42:31,200
operational record book it's a

1212
00:42:36,390 --> 00:42:34,400
day-to-day breakdown of missions flights

1213
00:42:37,349 --> 00:42:36,400
uh and other information to do with the

1214
00:42:40,069 --> 00:42:37,359
unit

1215
00:42:42,870 --> 00:42:40,079
and this particular reference comes up

1216
00:42:45,670 --> 00:42:42,880
for the 21st of october 1952 and what it

1217
00:42:48,390 --> 00:42:45,680
says is flight lieutenant mj e swiney

1218
00:42:50,230 --> 00:42:48,400
instructor and le and lieutenant i'm

1219
00:42:53,829 --> 00:42:50,240
sorry lieutenant because it's british

1220
00:42:55,349 --> 00:42:53,839
lieutenant d crofts rn royal navy

1221
00:42:57,910 --> 00:42:55,359
student

1222
00:43:00,470 --> 00:42:57,920
cited three mysterious saucer shaped

1223
00:43:02,309 --> 00:43:00,480
objects traveling at high speed at about

1224
00:43:04,230 --> 00:43:02,319
thirty five thousand feet

1225
00:43:06,470 --> 00:43:04,240
whilst on a high level navigation

1226
00:43:07,390 --> 00:43:06,480
exercise in a meteor seven

1227
00:43:10,790 --> 00:43:07,400
later

1228
00:43:13,190 --> 00:43:10,800
atcc gloucester reported radar plots to

1229
00:43:14,870 --> 00:43:13,200
confirm this but air ministry discounted

1230
00:43:16,069 --> 00:43:14,880
any possibility of extraterrestrial

1231
00:43:17,990 --> 00:43:16,079
objects

1232
00:43:19,990 --> 00:43:18,000
so that's in the orb so that's an

1233
00:43:21,750 --> 00:43:20,000
official document and that's actually an

1234
00:43:24,150 --> 00:43:21,760
raf document as well

1235
00:43:27,349 --> 00:43:24,160
so a lot of the time when you see raf

1236
00:43:30,790 --> 00:43:27,359
ufo reports they don't appear in the

1237
00:43:32,790 --> 00:43:30,800
orbs but in this particular case it does

1238
00:43:35,349 --> 00:43:32,800
so it was quite noticeable

1239
00:43:37,750 --> 00:43:35,359
um just to go back to what the the some

1240
00:43:40,150 --> 00:43:37,760
of the terminology is so um we're

1241
00:43:42,630 --> 00:43:40,160
looking at um atcc which is air traffic

1242
00:43:45,030 --> 00:43:42,640
you know the control center so it was

1243
00:43:46,870 --> 00:43:45,040
actually a ground radar uh or series of

1244
00:43:49,829 --> 00:43:46,880
ground radar sites that sort of picked

1245
00:43:51,349 --> 00:43:49,839
this object or objects up as well

1246
00:43:53,190 --> 00:43:51,359
um now

1247
00:43:55,109 --> 00:43:53,200
as you say that that's have you found

1248
00:43:56,950 --> 00:43:55,119
anywhere else really that you know that

1249
00:43:58,390 --> 00:43:56,960
this appears in

1250
00:43:59,750 --> 00:43:58,400
not yet no

1251
00:44:03,670 --> 00:43:59,760
okay i've had some i've had a few

1252
00:44:06,390 --> 00:44:03,680
conversations so i'm gonna keep digging

1253
00:44:08,390 --> 00:44:06,400
you can find extra information regarding

1254
00:44:11,030 --> 00:44:08,400
this case in a book by somebody called

1255
00:44:14,309 --> 00:44:11,040
peter horsley it's his autobiography now

1256
00:44:17,030 --> 00:44:14,319
he was a former wartime mosquito pilot

1257
00:44:19,430 --> 00:44:17,040
and he became extra equity uh he's kind

1258
00:44:21,430 --> 00:44:19,440
of like an aide if you like to

1259
00:44:23,589 --> 00:44:21,440
her royal highness prince elizabeth and

1260
00:44:25,030 --> 00:44:23,599
then he also and also to his royal

1261
00:44:28,550 --> 00:44:25,040
highness the duke of edinburgh prince

1262
00:44:30,710 --> 00:44:28,560
philip uh and that was in 1953 became

1263
00:44:32,790 --> 00:44:30,720
the duke's full-time equity so he was

1264
00:44:34,309 --> 00:44:32,800
quite close to the edinburgh and of

1265
00:44:36,390 --> 00:44:34,319
course prince philip actually had an

1266
00:44:37,829 --> 00:44:36,400
interest in ufos as most people actually

1267
00:44:40,390 --> 00:44:37,839
are aware of

1268
00:44:42,069 --> 00:44:40,400
and therefore um peter horsley

1269
00:44:43,829 --> 00:44:42,079
had conversations with him on the

1270
00:44:46,870 --> 00:44:43,839
subject at ufos

1271
00:44:48,790 --> 00:44:46,880
um now horsley in his book about his

1272
00:44:50,950 --> 00:44:48,800
life and not for prince philip's life

1273
00:44:52,470 --> 00:44:50,960
but about his own life actually mentions

1274
00:44:54,150 --> 00:44:52,480
this and and he talks about the little

1275
00:44:55,990 --> 00:44:54,160
wrestling incident and this is the this

1276
00:44:57,430 --> 00:44:56,000
is a quote from the book um an

1277
00:44:58,710 --> 00:44:57,440
instructor and his people instructor

1278
00:45:00,950 --> 00:44:58,720
were carrying out

1279
00:45:02,950 --> 00:45:00,960
a series of high level sorties in a

1280
00:45:05,030 --> 00:45:02,960
tandem seat meteor the people in the

1281
00:45:07,190 --> 00:45:05,040
front seat the instructor in the rear

1282
00:45:09,030 --> 00:45:07,200
the print the front pilot observed a

1283
00:45:10,710 --> 00:45:09,040
circular flying object some distance

1284
00:45:12,309 --> 00:45:10,720
away dead ahead

1285
00:45:14,230 --> 00:45:12,319
filling about three inches of the swing

1286
00:45:15,109 --> 00:45:14,240
screen which was approximately two feet

1287
00:45:16,950 --> 00:45:15,119
across

1288
00:45:19,109 --> 00:45:16,960
he had no previous knowledge of or

1289
00:45:20,470 --> 00:45:19,119
interest in ufos

1290
00:45:21,990 --> 00:45:20,480
the object was so strange that he

1291
00:45:24,470 --> 00:45:22,000
immediately assumed that he had auction

1292
00:45:26,790 --> 00:45:24,480
failure and informed his instructor who

1293
00:45:29,510 --> 00:45:26,800
took over control and turned the

1294
00:45:31,190 --> 00:45:29,520
aircraft through 45 degrees that would

1295
00:45:33,270 --> 00:45:31,200
presumably see whether some kind of

1296
00:45:34,790 --> 00:45:33,280
cockpit reflection because that would be

1297
00:45:36,470 --> 00:45:34,800
standard practice if you saw something

1298
00:45:38,069 --> 00:45:36,480
that you weren't entirely sure you moved

1299
00:45:39,829 --> 00:45:38,079
the aircraft to a different plate uh

1300
00:45:41,190 --> 00:45:39,839
different heading and then looked in the

1301
00:45:42,870 --> 00:45:41,200
same position again just to see whether

1302
00:45:44,790 --> 00:45:42,880
it was a reflection of a dial or

1303
00:45:46,870 --> 00:45:44,800
something in the cockpit

1304
00:45:48,950 --> 00:45:46,880
he then saw the object and the two

1305
00:45:50,390 --> 00:45:48,960
pilots confirmed its description to each

1306
00:45:52,630 --> 00:45:50,400
other so they they checked that they

1307
00:45:54,309 --> 00:45:52,640
were seeing exactly the same thing

1308
00:45:55,990 --> 00:45:54,319
the instructor immediately reported the

1309
00:45:57,829 --> 00:45:56,000
incident to little risk and air traffic

1310
00:45:59,829 --> 00:45:57,839
control who were not aware of any

1311
00:46:02,550 --> 00:45:59,839
traffic in the vicinity of the meteor

1312
00:46:04,470 --> 00:46:02,560
and instructed him to approach closer

1313
00:46:06,150 --> 00:46:04,480
the crew turned again towards the object

1314
00:46:09,750 --> 00:46:06,160
opening up to full power

1315
00:46:12,550 --> 00:46:09,760
at mach 0.8 so you're looking at about

1316
00:46:14,550 --> 00:46:12,560
500 miles an hour or so

1317
00:46:16,790 --> 00:46:14,560
they gained quite rapidly

1318
00:46:18,710 --> 00:46:16,800
but when the circular object filled half

1319
00:46:21,750 --> 00:46:18,720
their windscreen it certainly turned on

1320
00:46:23,109 --> 00:46:21,760
it suddenly turned on its side

1321
00:46:24,950 --> 00:46:23,119
like a plate

1322
00:46:26,630 --> 00:46:24,960
that was their words

1323
00:46:28,790 --> 00:46:26,640
and climbed away out of sight at great

1324
00:46:30,550 --> 00:46:28,800
speed it was not possible to estimate

1325
00:46:31,829 --> 00:46:30,560
its size because they did not know its

1326
00:46:33,349 --> 00:46:31,839
distance

1327
00:46:36,829 --> 00:46:33,359
their description was similar to other

1328
00:46:39,670 --> 00:46:36,839
reports circular and emitting an uh

1329
00:46:41,510 --> 00:46:39,680
incandescent light around its object its

1330
00:46:44,230 --> 00:46:41,520
edges sorry

1331
00:46:46,470 --> 00:46:44,240
so horsley only mentions one object in

1332
00:46:49,349 --> 00:46:46,480
this book of his but actually according

1333
00:46:51,990 --> 00:46:49,359
to the uh the orb records there were

1334
00:46:55,190 --> 00:46:52,000
three that the pilot and instructor saw

1335
00:46:56,470 --> 00:46:55,200
and of course at first michael swaney

1336
00:46:59,109 --> 00:46:56,480
actually thought that there might be

1337
00:47:00,630 --> 00:46:59,119
parachutes coming down from some unseen

1338
00:47:02,550 --> 00:47:00,640
aircraft above them which might have

1339
00:47:03,990 --> 00:47:02,560
been in trouble or might have been

1340
00:47:06,950 --> 00:47:04,000
dropping something

1341
00:47:08,150 --> 00:47:06,960
um now david croft who was in the pupil

1342
00:47:09,829 --> 00:47:08,160
in the front seat

1343
00:47:11,829 --> 00:47:09,839
he described them as being elliptical

1344
00:47:15,750 --> 00:47:11,839
shaped and looking like circular pieces

1345
00:47:17,990 --> 00:47:15,760
of glas of glass reflecting in the sun

1346
00:47:19,589 --> 00:47:18,000
he's um now he suddenly subsequently

1347
00:47:21,589 --> 00:47:19,599
learned that fighter command had

1348
00:47:23,030 --> 00:47:21,599
scrambled jet fighters to intercept the

1349
00:47:24,549 --> 00:47:23,040
objects but of course that's never been

1350
00:47:27,030 --> 00:47:24,559
confirmed by

1351
00:47:28,549 --> 00:47:27,040
uh you know in in the official records

1352
00:47:30,950 --> 00:47:28,559
it just merely mentions that they

1353
00:47:33,510 --> 00:47:30,960
actually uh they saw these circular

1354
00:47:35,030 --> 00:47:33,520
objects now i guess if you look at other

1355
00:47:37,109 --> 00:47:35,040
fighter squadrons

1356
00:47:39,910 --> 00:47:37,119
you might actually find

1357
00:47:42,069 --> 00:47:39,920
records of a scramble but again you

1358
00:47:43,910 --> 00:47:42,079
might not because things like that not

1359
00:47:46,230 --> 00:47:43,920
necessarily recorded now that could be a

1360
00:47:48,870 --> 00:47:46,240
little job for somebody or myself to go

1361
00:47:50,710 --> 00:47:48,880
through those records uh and you have to

1362
00:47:53,910 --> 00:47:50,720
work you would have to work out

1363
00:47:55,430 --> 00:47:53,920
what fight squadrons were near enough to

1364
00:47:57,030 --> 00:47:55,440
to that part of gloucestershire that

1365
00:47:59,109 --> 00:47:57,040
they could have got a jet into the air

1366
00:48:01,030 --> 00:47:59,119
and you know scrambled uh to try and

1367
00:48:02,150 --> 00:48:01,040
intercept and there would be there's

1368
00:48:03,750 --> 00:48:02,160
there'll be

1369
00:48:05,510 --> 00:48:03,760
bases around london and on the south

1370
00:48:07,670 --> 00:48:05,520
coast of england which would be well

1371
00:48:09,349 --> 00:48:07,680
within range are they so that was you

1372
00:48:11,430 --> 00:48:09,359
know theoretically possible

1373
00:48:13,910 --> 00:48:11,440
um but here's the other thing

1374
00:48:15,109 --> 00:48:13,920
again this is another radar visual case

1375
00:48:16,790 --> 00:48:15,119
because

1376
00:48:19,510 --> 00:48:16,800
um

1377
00:48:21,910 --> 00:48:19,520
the air ministry investigators reckoned

1378
00:48:23,349 --> 00:48:21,920
that um you know they've been in

1379
00:48:25,190 --> 00:48:23,359
communication with every country in the

1380
00:48:27,030 --> 00:48:25,200
world that was likely to have that kind

1381
00:48:27,990 --> 00:48:27,040
of aircraft the vicinity and drew a

1382
00:48:30,710 --> 00:48:28,000
blank

1383
00:48:32,549 --> 00:48:30,720
but the pilots were later told and i'm

1384
00:48:34,710 --> 00:48:32,559
not entirely sure who it's clear who

1385
00:48:38,230 --> 00:48:34,720
told them but the craft had been picked

1386
00:48:40,470 --> 00:48:38,240
up by radar sites at a place called box

1387
00:48:43,030 --> 00:48:40,480
uh and also a place called sopley now

1388
00:48:46,150 --> 00:48:43,040
funny enough box lately became known as

1389
00:48:48,549 --> 00:48:46,160
raf ridler manor and if anybody in the

1390
00:48:50,710 --> 00:48:48,559
chat or listening to this as years have

1391
00:48:52,630 --> 00:48:50,720
pricked up with that name then well do

1392
00:48:54,790 --> 00:48:52,640
you know vinnie what the significance of

1393
00:48:57,670 --> 00:48:54,800
rudolph manor is

1394
00:48:59,349 --> 00:48:57,680
i've heard it come up so many times uh

1395
00:49:01,030 --> 00:48:59,359
is there a certain

1396
00:49:02,630 --> 00:49:01,040
importance to it at that era what do you

1397
00:49:04,470 --> 00:49:02,640
mean in general no

1398
00:49:06,230 --> 00:49:04,480
much later so it was the place where

1399
00:49:08,790 --> 00:49:06,240
what they call the flying uh complaints

1400
00:49:11,109 --> 00:49:08,800
flight was held uh was based but it was

1401
00:49:14,390 --> 00:49:11,119
also an alleged center for investigating

1402
00:49:16,790 --> 00:49:14,400
ufo reports in the uk under the into the

1403
00:49:18,870 --> 00:49:16,800
auspices of the flying complaints flight

1404
00:49:20,950 --> 00:49:18,880
it's never really kind of

1405
00:49:23,030 --> 00:49:20,960
improved but that's the thing it was

1406
00:49:25,030 --> 00:49:23,040
always rumor wasn't it back in the 80s

1407
00:49:27,430 --> 00:49:25,040
and early 90s it was one of those places

1408
00:49:29,270 --> 00:49:27,440
that featured in a lot of ufo books so

1409
00:49:32,710 --> 00:49:29,280
you know if you didn't get stories about

1410
00:49:35,109 --> 00:49:32,720
uh area 51 or things like that then you

1411
00:49:36,710 --> 00:49:35,119
know uh rf ridler manor would come up

1412
00:49:38,390 --> 00:49:36,720
and tim good used to write about it and

1413
00:49:40,710 --> 00:49:38,400
you know other people did as well so

1414
00:49:42,150 --> 00:49:40,720
were there some connections to aerospace

1415
00:49:44,069 --> 00:49:42,160
companies as well to rudely manner

1416
00:49:45,430 --> 00:49:44,079
weren't there some base i can't remember

1417
00:49:46,950 --> 00:49:45,440
who they were maybe i'm just going off

1418
00:49:48,710 --> 00:49:46,960
on a tangent there's certainly stories

1419
00:49:50,309 --> 00:49:48,720
about underground tunnels yeah and all

1420
00:49:51,750 --> 00:49:50,319
sorts of weird wonderful things there

1421
00:49:53,270 --> 00:49:51,760
but again

1422
00:49:55,270 --> 00:49:53,280
these kind of stories that people come

1423
00:49:57,190 --> 00:49:55,280
out with and you have to take them with

1424
00:49:59,109 --> 00:49:57,200
a little pinch of salt sort of thing

1425
00:50:00,549 --> 00:49:59,119
absolutely yeah and should i just jump

1426
00:50:01,910 --> 00:50:00,559
on because i think that

1427
00:50:03,750 --> 00:50:01,920
that's the last yeah so that's the type

1428
00:50:05,910 --> 00:50:03,760
of aircraft that's a meteor t7 so it's a

1429
00:50:07,670 --> 00:50:05,920
two-seat meteor

1430
00:50:09,829 --> 00:50:07,680
this is the the first type of jet

1431
00:50:11,030 --> 00:50:09,839
fighter that saw service with the raf

1432
00:50:13,030 --> 00:50:11,040
and this was the two-seat trainer

1433
00:50:14,390 --> 00:50:13,040
version and these aircraft were still

1434
00:50:16,790 --> 00:50:14,400
like even though they were quite along

1435
00:50:19,670 --> 00:50:16,800
the tooth by by the sort of the

1436
00:50:21,109 --> 00:50:19,680
early mid 50s they were still in service

1437
00:50:22,150 --> 00:50:21,119
they were bringing out later versions of

1438
00:50:23,430 --> 00:50:22,160
this but

1439
00:50:25,030 --> 00:50:23,440
this aircraft would have been in service

1440
00:50:26,710 --> 00:50:25,040
for the several flying school

1441
00:50:28,470 --> 00:50:26,720
and this is not too dissimilar to the

1442
00:50:30,790 --> 00:50:28,480
aircraft and the two were flying the day

1443
00:50:32,710 --> 00:50:30,800
they saw the ufos

1444
00:50:34,790 --> 00:50:32,720
it's so amazing because that that line

1445
00:50:37,270 --> 00:50:34,800
where he says you know it appeared

1446
00:50:38,710 --> 00:50:37,280
to fill half the windshield turned on

1447
00:50:41,510 --> 00:50:38,720
its side and then shot off at great

1448
00:50:43,990 --> 00:50:41,520
speed and i mean

1449
00:50:45,670 --> 00:50:44,000
that's mind-boggling stuff isn't it and

1450
00:50:47,829 --> 00:50:45,680
i will just highlight here that you have

1451
00:50:50,150 --> 00:50:47,839
actually written about it

1452
00:50:52,470 --> 00:50:50,160
here on the uap media website which this

1453
00:50:54,470 --> 00:50:52,480
article is linked below this video

1454
00:50:55,829 --> 00:50:54,480
and i also want to highlight it's all

1455
00:50:58,470 --> 00:50:55,839
it's also pulled from the book as well

1456
00:51:00,790 --> 00:50:58,480
so that that's based on pretty much what

1457
00:51:03,270 --> 00:51:00,800
i wrote in the book uh with a few bits

1458
00:51:04,390 --> 00:51:03,280
like missed out but uh yeah

1459
00:51:06,549 --> 00:51:04,400
and then uh

1460
00:51:08,790 --> 00:51:06,559
this comment here our very own dave

1461
00:51:11,190 --> 00:51:08,800
clark interviewed says spiny but he

1462
00:51:13,910 --> 00:51:11,200
means swiney before he died that's from

1463
00:51:15,190 --> 00:51:13,920
giles good to see you charles and yeah i

1464
00:51:16,549 --> 00:51:15,200
actually spoke with david a couple of

1465
00:51:18,950 --> 00:51:16,559
days ago about the case and he's going

1466
00:51:21,030 --> 00:51:18,960
to send me the the audio of that

1467
00:51:22,790 --> 00:51:21,040
interview with swiney in about a week's

1468
00:51:25,190 --> 00:51:22,800
time because david's uh

1469
00:51:27,109 --> 00:51:25,200
on holiday at the moment so i'm going to

1470
00:51:29,190 --> 00:51:27,119
be doing more digging and the one thing

1471
00:51:31,109 --> 00:51:29,200
i like is listening to these interviews

1472
00:51:32,950 --> 00:51:31,119
to hear the tone of voice when they're

1473
00:51:35,190 --> 00:51:32,960
discussing them because i did that with

1474
00:51:36,150 --> 00:51:35,200
the lake and heath case and you just

1475
00:51:37,190 --> 00:51:36,160
it's ju i don't know there's just

1476
00:51:39,270 --> 00:51:37,200
something about hearing it from the

1477
00:51:41,589 --> 00:51:39,280
horse's mouth that it just is

1478
00:51:43,349 --> 00:51:41,599
fascinating so yeah i mean if you look

1479
00:51:45,990 --> 00:51:43,359
if you look on youtube there are

1480
00:51:48,069 --> 00:51:46,000
interviews like news kind of broadcasts

1481
00:51:50,309 --> 00:51:48,079
interviews with some british pilots uh

1482
00:51:52,710 --> 00:51:50,319
from that about that time as well so you

1483
00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:52,720
know in the in the mid early to mid 50s

1484
00:51:56,790 --> 00:51:54,480
so you get a kind of flavor about how

1485
00:51:58,549 --> 00:51:56,800
that how they saw um these kind of

1486
00:52:00,470 --> 00:51:58,559
incidents and how they reacted they're

1487
00:52:03,030 --> 00:52:00,480
quite kind of stilted and stiff upper

1488
00:52:05,670 --> 00:52:03,040
lip kind of broadcasts as was the you

1489
00:52:07,430 --> 00:52:05,680
know the kind of thing from the time but

1490
00:52:09,750 --> 00:52:07,440
as you say it's a really good insight

1491
00:52:11,589 --> 00:52:09,760
into how they they saw it and how they

1492
00:52:14,470 --> 00:52:11,599
what they think about it um one of the

1493
00:52:15,510 --> 00:52:14,480
cases is the airliner of labrador uh

1494
00:52:21,750 --> 00:52:15,520
that um

1495
00:52:23,510 --> 00:52:21,760
the the crew saw these you know strange

1496
00:52:24,630 --> 00:52:23,520
object actually changed shape

1497
00:52:26,950 --> 00:52:24,640
it was a

1498
00:52:28,870 --> 00:52:26,960
a main object with little ones next to

1499
00:52:29,990 --> 00:52:28,880
it but the main one changed shape three

1500
00:52:32,150 --> 00:52:30,000
times

1501
00:52:35,030 --> 00:52:32,160
um now that's actually uh you can see

1502
00:52:37,750 --> 00:52:35,040
the the newsreel um news item that was

1503
00:52:39,589 --> 00:52:37,760
done the the interview the pilot uh at

1504
00:52:41,910 --> 00:52:39,599
heathrow you know or london airport

1505
00:52:43,670 --> 00:52:41,920
rather uh back then you know some days

1506
00:52:45,670 --> 00:52:43,680
afterwards and it that these are

1507
00:52:47,750 --> 00:52:45,680
fascinating interviews yeah

1508
00:52:49,030 --> 00:52:47,760
so yeah you can find things like that as

1509
00:52:51,829 --> 00:52:49,040
well

1510
00:52:53,190 --> 00:52:51,839
absolutely and what i i forgot i saw a

1511
00:52:54,870 --> 00:52:53,200
comment earlier saying you know it's

1512
00:52:56,630 --> 00:52:54,880
kind of pointless discussing these kind

1513
00:52:58,470 --> 00:52:56,640
of cases or you're making mountains out

1514
00:53:00,230 --> 00:52:58,480
of mole hills i think was the comment

1515
00:53:02,630 --> 00:53:00,240
the thing is we're not trying to solve

1516
00:53:04,069 --> 00:53:02,640
these cases we're simply highlighting

1517
00:53:06,309 --> 00:53:04,079
that these have happened they were

1518
00:53:08,150 --> 00:53:06,319
reported there are data points in there

1519
00:53:09,910 --> 00:53:08,160
that make no sense that were

1520
00:53:11,670 --> 00:53:09,920
investigated and they could not figure

1521
00:53:13,430 --> 00:53:11,680
out what these things were and i think

1522
00:53:15,349 --> 00:53:13,440
comparing old cases like this and

1523
00:53:17,190 --> 00:53:15,359
bringing it back into the modern times

1524
00:53:19,190 --> 00:53:17,200
comparing it seeing similarities with

1525
00:53:20,790 --> 00:53:19,200
modern cases i think it's important to

1526
00:53:22,870 --> 00:53:20,800
sort of put little pieces of the puzzle

1527
00:53:24,790 --> 00:53:22,880
together it may not lead anywhere but it

1528
00:53:26,870 --> 00:53:24,800
might it doesn't hurt so that's kind of

1529
00:53:28,710 --> 00:53:26,880
my yeah i think when you look at it you

1530
00:53:30,230 --> 00:53:28,720
see today you'll see a lot of

1531
00:53:31,349 --> 00:53:30,240
explanations oh they're russian or

1532
00:53:33,109 --> 00:53:31,359
chinese

1533
00:53:34,150 --> 00:53:33,119
but you can't apply that kind of logic

1534
00:53:35,030 --> 00:53:34,160
back then

1535
00:53:37,190 --> 00:53:35,040
so

1536
00:53:39,030 --> 00:53:37,200
it's it's useful to know that to the the

1537
00:53:40,790 --> 00:53:39,040
history of the subject because as you

1538
00:53:42,790 --> 00:53:40,800
say you can see parallels but you can

1539
00:53:45,750 --> 00:53:42,800
also see differences and you can see a

1540
00:53:47,829 --> 00:53:45,760
direction of travel but also they just

1541
00:53:49,349 --> 00:53:47,839
build up a picture and yes as you say

1542
00:53:51,510 --> 00:53:49,359
we're never gonna we're never gonna

1543
00:53:53,829 --> 00:53:51,520
solve these cases that because there's

1544
00:53:55,829 --> 00:53:53,839
just not enough information but they're

1545
00:53:58,069 --> 00:53:55,839
unique you know they all have their own

1546
00:53:59,589 --> 00:53:58,079
unique little piece to them

1547
00:54:01,510 --> 00:53:59,599
yeah fascinating

1548
00:54:04,230 --> 00:54:01,520
um and if you just if you read enough of

1549
00:54:06,470 --> 00:54:04,240
them then it's an overwhelming kind of

1550
00:54:08,150 --> 00:54:06,480
weight of evidence and for people who

1551
00:54:10,549 --> 00:54:08,160
are only coming into the subject quite

1552
00:54:12,630 --> 00:54:10,559
recently and for all you know all they

1553
00:54:15,349 --> 00:54:12,640
know are the nimitz encounters and the

1554
00:54:17,510 --> 00:54:15,359
2015 uh um your

1555
00:54:18,870 --> 00:54:17,520
sightings and the us navy the things

1556
00:54:20,870 --> 00:54:18,880
that crowded the ships and all the rest

1557
00:54:22,950 --> 00:54:20,880
of it then there's actually this huge

1558
00:54:25,190 --> 00:54:22,960
rich back catalogue of things that

1559
00:54:27,270 --> 00:54:25,200
happened um that you know people are

1560
00:54:28,790 --> 00:54:27,280
really unaware of and yet some of them

1561
00:54:30,390 --> 00:54:28,800
are absolutely fascinating they're

1562
00:54:32,470 --> 00:54:30,400
riveting stories and some of them

1563
00:54:33,829 --> 00:54:32,480
actually quite unbelievable

1564
00:54:37,670 --> 00:54:33,839
if you look at the cover of flying

1565
00:54:41,109 --> 00:54:37,680
saucer fever you'll see the the the

1566
00:54:43,589 --> 00:54:41,119
aircraft the huge still um the the huge

1567
00:54:46,309 --> 00:54:43,599
bomber that flew around the peacemaker

1568
00:54:48,870 --> 00:54:46,319
and the the story of the ufo that you

1569
00:54:52,309 --> 00:54:48,880
see there actually sat between the tail

1570
00:54:54,069 --> 00:54:52,319
plane and the rear-facing propellers you

1571
00:54:55,349 --> 00:54:54,079
know sort of thing so that's not

1572
00:54:56,150 --> 00:54:55,359
something that you can just go oh you

1573
00:54:59,829 --> 00:54:56,160
know

1574
00:55:01,750 --> 00:54:59,839
that's a kind of well where have you

1575
00:55:03,270 --> 00:55:01,760
ever heard of a story like that before

1576
00:55:05,190 --> 00:55:03,280
yeah

1577
00:55:06,950 --> 00:55:05,200
and the thing is about that case i mean

1578
00:55:08,069 --> 00:55:06,960
i'll just quickly it'll take you sure

1579
00:55:10,789 --> 00:55:08,079
yeah yeah

1580
00:55:12,549 --> 00:55:10,799
of course this was the only part of the

1581
00:55:14,630 --> 00:55:12,559
official file that the intelligence

1582
00:55:17,030 --> 00:55:14,640
officer wrote about this case

1583
00:55:19,430 --> 00:55:17,040
is the bit from the ground and yet the

1584
00:55:22,069 --> 00:55:19,440
intelligence officer himself

1585
00:55:24,069 --> 00:55:22,079
who saw it on the ground wrote the file

1586
00:55:26,470 --> 00:55:24,079
and he says out of the 70 odd pages in

1587
00:55:28,390 --> 00:55:26,480
the file there's not that many left you

1588
00:55:31,349 --> 00:55:28,400
know so where are all these other pages

1589
00:55:33,670 --> 00:55:31,359
which presumably are from the crew

1590
00:55:35,589 --> 00:55:33,680
because there were 15 there'd be 15 crew

1591
00:55:37,030 --> 00:55:35,599
members on that aircraft

1592
00:55:39,030 --> 00:55:37,040
you know it wasn't a small aircraft

1593
00:55:40,870 --> 00:55:39,040
there were 15 crew on the board and they

1594
00:55:43,030 --> 00:55:40,880
all and those maybe half a dozen

1595
00:55:45,030 --> 00:55:43,040
observation blisters never mind the kind

1596
00:55:46,630 --> 00:55:45,040
of cockpit in the in the other windows

1597
00:55:48,549 --> 00:55:46,640
on the aircraft where they could see

1598
00:55:50,309 --> 00:55:48,559
this thing and actually you can't you

1599
00:55:52,390 --> 00:55:50,319
can quite you can almost make it out on

1600
00:55:54,150 --> 00:55:52,400
that on that drawing by dan and olaf

1601
00:55:55,349 --> 00:55:54,160
that there were observation blisters

1602
00:55:56,470 --> 00:55:55,359
right next to where that thing was

1603
00:55:59,670 --> 00:55:56,480
sitting

1604
00:56:00,630 --> 00:55:59,680
yeah yeah yeah and just about there yeah

1605
00:56:02,390 --> 00:56:00,640
yeah

1606
00:56:03,430 --> 00:56:02,400
my goodness

1607
00:56:06,150 --> 00:56:03,440
wow

1608
00:56:07,990 --> 00:56:06,160
imagine seeing that thing just like yeah

1609
00:56:09,589 --> 00:56:08,000
feet away from you

1610
00:56:11,190 --> 00:56:09,599
and they presumably would have had

1611
00:56:12,150 --> 00:56:11,200
cameras on board the aircraft or a

1612
00:56:13,109 --> 00:56:12,160
camera

1613
00:56:14,710 --> 00:56:13,119
um

1614
00:56:16,390 --> 00:56:14,720
you know so maybe there was pictures

1615
00:56:17,750 --> 00:56:16,400
taken we just don't know

1616
00:56:20,390 --> 00:56:17,760
um because

1617
00:56:21,190 --> 00:56:20,400
that part that portion of the file

1618
00:56:23,910 --> 00:56:21,200
you know

1619
00:56:25,510 --> 00:56:23,920
isn't there it's never been made public

1620
00:56:27,430 --> 00:56:25,520
whether it's gone missing or something's

1621
00:56:29,510 --> 00:56:27,440
happened to it who knows but the actual

1622
00:56:31,030 --> 00:56:29,520
publicly available portion of the file

1623
00:56:32,789 --> 00:56:31,040
is to do with the intelligence officer

1624
00:56:33,910 --> 00:56:32,799
and somebody else who was standing on

1625
00:56:35,430 --> 00:56:33,920
the ground at the air base they were

1626
00:56:37,349 --> 00:56:35,440
looking up and they saw the in the

1627
00:56:39,190 --> 00:56:37,359
source and that thing was sitting

1628
00:56:40,950 --> 00:56:39,200
between the tail and the wings and there

1629
00:56:42,710 --> 00:56:40,960
was another one nearby

1630
00:56:44,630 --> 00:56:42,720
that's unbelievable fascinating

1631
00:56:46,549 --> 00:56:44,640
fascinating stuff

1632
00:56:49,109 --> 00:56:46,559
um i've got a couple more questions here

1633
00:56:50,549 --> 00:56:49,119
first one is from uh my good friend mr

1634
00:56:52,710 --> 00:56:50,559
ashley cowy

1635
00:56:54,309 --> 00:56:52,720
uh has graham's research identified any

1636
00:56:56,549 --> 00:56:54,319
particular type of world war two

1637
00:56:59,670 --> 00:56:56,559
aircraft or radar system associated with

1638
00:57:00,950 --> 00:56:59,680
uap more than so yeah so the world war

1639
00:57:02,789 --> 00:57:00,960
ii kind of thing well you have to look

1640
00:57:04,549 --> 00:57:02,799
at the where they were so there was

1641
00:57:07,190 --> 00:57:04,559
basically two types of aircraft that the

1642
00:57:08,549 --> 00:57:07,200
americans were operating that were in

1643
00:57:10,230 --> 00:57:08,559
close contact with the foo fighters

1644
00:57:12,150 --> 00:57:10,240
that's the bristol bow fighter so that

1645
00:57:14,069 --> 00:57:12,160
was a british type that was supplied the

1646
00:57:15,349 --> 00:57:14,079
americans because they didn't have a

1647
00:57:16,870 --> 00:57:15,359
knight fighter of their own when they

1648
00:57:19,190 --> 00:57:16,880
were getting the squadrons together to

1649
00:57:20,549 --> 00:57:19,200
do that role and then the p 61 black

1650
00:57:22,549 --> 00:57:20,559
widow which you saw at the beginning of

1651
00:57:24,309 --> 00:57:22,559
the program the the picture that vinnie

1652
00:57:26,309 --> 00:57:24,319
showed so those are the two aircraft

1653
00:57:28,470 --> 00:57:26,319
that were in the european theater

1654
00:57:30,950 --> 00:57:28,480
operations at least that were quite

1655
00:57:32,470 --> 00:57:30,960
closely associated with foo fighters but

1656
00:57:34,870 --> 00:57:32,480
then there was all different types of

1657
00:57:37,109 --> 00:57:34,880
aircraft from the rf and from other uh

1658
00:57:38,630 --> 00:57:37,119
air forces that were saying things that

1659
00:57:40,230 --> 00:57:38,640
they couldn't explain so you know

1660
00:57:42,150 --> 00:57:40,240
lancaster bowlers halifax bombs

1661
00:57:44,150 --> 00:57:42,160
wellingtons all this kind of thing and

1662
00:57:45,990 --> 00:57:44,160
probably some german aircraft although

1663
00:57:48,230 --> 00:57:46,000
i've been painst to point out over the

1664
00:57:49,190 --> 00:57:48,240
years you know luftwaffe records are

1665
00:57:50,789 --> 00:57:49,200
quite uh

1666
00:57:51,990 --> 00:57:50,799
non-existent so we just don't know from

1667
00:57:53,589 --> 00:57:52,000
that side

1668
00:57:55,990 --> 00:57:53,599
yeah fascinating

1669
00:57:58,789 --> 00:57:56,000
so and then i wanted to say this one

1670
00:58:00,789 --> 00:57:58,799
because i think this is a great question

1671
00:58:02,710 --> 00:58:00,799
hi faves how did you get how did you get

1672
00:58:03,829 --> 00:58:02,720
your start in the field of ufology

1673
00:58:05,270 --> 00:58:03,839
graham

1674
00:58:08,230 --> 00:58:05,280
okay i think i've told this story before

1675
00:58:10,069 --> 00:58:08,240
but probably some people

1676
00:58:11,910 --> 00:58:10,079
when i was sort of seven or eight year

1677
00:58:13,510 --> 00:58:11,920
old i was quite interested in science

1678
00:58:15,750 --> 00:58:13,520
fiction i was reading

1679
00:58:17,990 --> 00:58:15,760
isaac asimov books when i was eight year

1680
00:58:19,910 --> 00:58:18,000
old and if anybody's ever seen the

1681
00:58:21,750 --> 00:58:19,920
paperback versions of these books they

1682
00:58:23,109 --> 00:58:21,760
have some really really good artwork on

1683
00:58:24,789 --> 00:58:23,119
the you know sort of drawings of

1684
00:58:26,069 --> 00:58:24,799
spaceships and all this kind of thing

1685
00:58:28,309 --> 00:58:26,079
and they were done by a certain number

1686
00:58:29,670 --> 00:58:28,319
of artists back in the in the 70s people

1687
00:58:31,829 --> 00:58:29,680
like chris foss and some of the people

1688
00:58:35,109 --> 00:58:31,839
who um people might know their artwork

1689
00:58:36,390 --> 00:58:35,119
um it's certainly famous anyway um so i

1690
00:58:38,069 --> 00:58:36,400
was quite into these books and i had

1691
00:58:40,230 --> 00:58:38,079
quite a collection you know 20 or 30 of

1692
00:58:42,870 --> 00:58:40,240
these these titles and the mother bless

1693
00:58:44,870 --> 00:58:42,880
her she's long gone but bless her uh she

1694
00:58:46,470 --> 00:58:44,880
bought me a book from a shop that she

1695
00:58:48,069 --> 00:58:46,480
thought was another one in the series

1696
00:58:49,670 --> 00:58:48,079
and it had a nice picture of a spaceship

1697
00:58:51,829 --> 00:58:49,680
on the front but it turned out to be a

1698
00:58:53,670 --> 00:58:51,839
book bar called mysterious visitors by

1699
00:58:56,069 --> 00:58:53,680
principally the power trench who

1700
00:58:57,349 --> 00:58:56,079
actually was the earl of clan carty and

1701
00:58:58,950 --> 00:58:57,359
he was a um

1702
00:59:00,630 --> 00:58:58,960
he was a government or a government

1703
00:59:02,230 --> 00:59:00,640
minister or part of the house of lords

1704
00:59:04,870 --> 00:59:02,240
rather and he was involved in the

1705
00:59:05,910 --> 00:59:04,880
households debates in the 1970s

1706
00:59:07,910 --> 00:59:05,920
um

1707
00:59:09,430 --> 00:59:07,920
about ufos and he'd written this book

1708
00:59:11,750 --> 00:59:09,440
he'd written other books in the 60s as

1709
00:59:14,150 --> 00:59:11,760
well um and there it was a mishmash of

1710
00:59:16,549 --> 00:59:14,160
kind of um biblical ufos and things a

1711
00:59:19,589 --> 00:59:16,559
bit more up to date um from the sort of

1712
00:59:20,789 --> 00:59:19,599
40s and 50s and the contact t people uh

1713
00:59:23,349 --> 00:59:20,799
you know damski and all this kind of

1714
00:59:26,309 --> 00:59:23,359
stuff and then some more modern for that

1715
00:59:27,829 --> 00:59:26,319
time uh events as well so it

1716
00:59:30,549 --> 00:59:27,839
looking back on it it's not the best of

1717
00:59:32,870 --> 00:59:30,559
books but for me and being eight or nine

1718
00:59:35,510 --> 00:59:32,880
year old whatever it was it was catnip

1719
00:59:36,540 --> 00:59:35,520
yeah it was fat it was fascinating and i

1720
00:59:40,069 --> 00:59:36,550
i just went

1721
00:59:44,549 --> 00:59:42,870
it did blow my mind um because

1722
00:59:46,710 --> 00:59:44,559
previously i've been reading books about

1723
00:59:48,470 --> 00:59:46,720
you know fiction you know characters i

1724
00:59:50,710 --> 00:59:48,480
want to start their their first you know

1725
00:59:52,069 --> 00:59:50,720
the original version of star trek on on

1726
00:59:53,750 --> 00:59:52,079
bbc one

1727
00:59:55,349 --> 00:59:53,760
in britain in the mid 70s and of course

1728
00:59:56,870 --> 00:59:55,359
that was just like you know make believe

1729
00:59:58,390 --> 00:59:56,880
but here was somebody saying well

1730
01:00:00,230 --> 00:59:58,400
actually no some of this stuff's true

1731
01:00:02,069 --> 01:00:00,240
you know there are like things where the

1732
01:00:03,990 --> 01:00:02,079
world's coming to visit us and they're

1733
01:00:05,349 --> 01:00:04,000
taking some of us away for you know for

1734
01:00:06,390 --> 01:00:05,359
whatever reason all the rest of it and

1735
01:00:08,150 --> 01:00:06,400
experimenting and then dropping them

1736
01:00:09,510 --> 01:00:08,160
back in fields and all this kind of

1737
01:00:11,190 --> 01:00:09,520
thing and it was i think with some

1738
01:00:13,430 --> 01:00:11,200
reference to the men in black as well

1739
01:00:14,789 --> 01:00:13,440
and some other stuff so it was all kind

1740
01:00:16,870 --> 01:00:14,799
of just

1741
01:00:18,230 --> 01:00:16,880
it just got me thinking and of course uh

1742
01:00:20,069 --> 01:00:18,240
you know i wanted to read everything i

1743
01:00:21,270 --> 01:00:20,079
could after that so you know i read all

1744
01:00:23,030 --> 01:00:21,280
the books in the library in the local

1745
01:00:24,710 --> 01:00:23,040
library i could find i was getting books

1746
01:00:26,470 --> 01:00:24,720
given christmas birthdays and all the

1747
01:00:29,670 --> 01:00:26,480
rest of it just went from there

1748
01:00:31,430 --> 01:00:29,680
so yeah thanks mom

1749
01:00:33,750 --> 01:00:31,440
i guess my follow-up is when did you

1750
01:00:36,150 --> 01:00:33,760
discover the ufo community

1751
01:00:37,750 --> 01:00:36,160
ah right okay so that was much later i

1752
01:00:39,670 --> 01:00:37,760
knew one existed and there was one

1753
01:00:41,750 --> 01:00:39,680
existed back then but obviously because

1754
01:00:43,990 --> 01:00:41,760
that was well before social media it was

1755
01:00:46,150 --> 01:00:44,000
all done with you know sort of personal

1756
01:00:48,789 --> 01:00:46,160
contact conventions and there weren't

1757
01:00:50,230 --> 01:00:48,799
that many in britain um or can't you

1758
01:00:51,510 --> 01:00:50,240
would write letters to people because

1759
01:00:53,990 --> 01:00:51,520
that's when people put stamps on

1760
01:00:55,589 --> 01:00:54,000
envelopes um or there was or there were

1761
01:00:56,789 --> 01:00:55,599
some newsletters you know a flying

1762
01:00:58,870 --> 01:00:56,799
source of review in britain and those

1763
01:01:01,030 --> 01:00:58,880
others in america of course so that was

1764
01:01:03,829 --> 01:01:01,040
the way a community formed whereas like

1765
01:01:05,750 --> 01:01:03,839
the kind of online community then that

1766
01:01:09,190 --> 01:01:05,760
was getting that was kicking off in the

1767
01:01:10,789 --> 01:01:09,200
in the late 90s so i was part of a um an

1768
01:01:12,150 --> 01:01:10,799
online community through what they

1769
01:01:13,990 --> 01:01:12,160
called um you know

1770
01:01:16,069 --> 01:01:14,000
well there were chat groups back then uh

1771
01:01:18,069 --> 01:01:16,079
there were used net boards uh usenet

1772
01:01:19,829 --> 01:01:18,079
groups which was a when you had a

1773
01:01:22,069 --> 01:01:19,839
dial-up connection it was really you

1774
01:01:24,870 --> 01:01:22,079
know i'm talking like mid 90s late 90s

1775
01:01:27,510 --> 01:01:24,880
here and there was quite a healthy ufo

1776
01:01:30,069 --> 01:01:27,520
community then but you had your equal

1777
01:01:32,390 --> 01:01:30,079
number of trolls and and kind of cooks

1778
01:01:35,190 --> 01:01:32,400
and and just people who wanted just to

1779
01:01:36,710 --> 01:01:35,200
you know sort of cause mayhem and then a

1780
01:01:38,549 --> 01:01:36,720
small core of people who genuinely

1781
01:01:40,390 --> 01:01:38,559
wanted to pass information around or

1782
01:01:42,630 --> 01:01:40,400
find things out and all the rest of it

1783
01:01:45,750 --> 01:01:42,640
so it's a kind of like a small microcosm

1784
01:01:46,470 --> 01:01:45,760
of what's like now on ufo twitter

1785
01:01:47,990 --> 01:01:46,480
so

1786
01:01:50,150 --> 01:01:48,000
yeah there we go

1787
01:01:52,870 --> 01:01:50,160
awesome that's fantastic

1788
01:01:56,950 --> 01:01:52,880
well i'm just gonna bring up this image

1789
01:01:59,589 --> 01:01:56,960
again for for the book cover because

1790
01:02:01,430 --> 01:01:59,599
yeah there we go i mean guys i've read

1791
01:02:03,349 --> 01:02:01,440
the first one the foo fighter book i've

1792
01:02:05,029 --> 01:02:03,359
still not got around to reading this one

1793
01:02:07,510 --> 01:02:05,039
but i can guarantee they're gonna be

1794
01:02:09,910 --> 01:02:07,520
incredible deep dives and i highly

1795
01:02:11,349 --> 01:02:09,920
recommend checking out graham's work

1796
01:02:13,190 --> 01:02:11,359
would you say graham there is an order

1797
01:02:15,190 --> 01:02:13,200
they should read them in does it matter

1798
01:02:16,630 --> 01:02:15,200
if it's in chronological

1799
01:02:18,470 --> 01:02:16,640
strictly speaking it doesn't matter i

1800
01:02:20,069 --> 01:02:18,480
mean if you want just to pick one of

1801
01:02:23,109 --> 01:02:20,079
them at random and start reading it it

1802
01:02:24,950 --> 01:02:23,119
doesn't you know you're not going to

1803
01:02:26,470 --> 01:02:24,960
lose anything by doing that but if you

1804
01:02:28,549 --> 01:02:26,480
want to do it in strict chronological

1805
01:02:30,870 --> 01:02:28,559
order the foo fighters boot comes first

1806
01:02:32,950 --> 01:02:30,880
and then you can see how the the um the

1807
01:02:35,990 --> 01:02:32,960
phenomenon develops i guess

1808
01:02:38,470 --> 01:02:36,000
so you'll see the wartime stuff uh from

1809
01:02:40,309 --> 01:02:38,480
say 40 right through to 45 and then if

1810
01:02:42,230 --> 01:02:40,319
you buy the um if you get a hold of the

1811
01:02:44,470 --> 01:02:42,240
the dawn of the flying sources book then

1812
01:02:46,390 --> 01:02:44,480
you'll see the the pre-keth arnold stuff

1813
01:02:48,309 --> 01:02:46,400
because there is some

1814
01:02:50,390 --> 01:02:48,319
things that happen before uh between the

1815
01:02:52,549 --> 01:02:50,400
end of the war and kenthan's sighting in

1816
01:02:55,829 --> 01:02:52,559
june 1947 there's not many but there are

1817
01:02:59,510 --> 01:02:55,839
some and then inter interwoven with the

1818
01:03:02,230 --> 01:02:59,520
kind of 47 4849 sightings i've told the

1819
01:03:04,150 --> 01:03:02,240
story of project sign and project grudge

1820
01:03:06,710 --> 01:03:04,160
which were the first two official

1821
01:03:09,589 --> 01:03:06,720
in um us air force investigations into

1822
01:03:11,910 --> 01:03:09,599
ufos so it it they kind of blend quite

1823
01:03:13,589 --> 01:03:11,920
nicely so you can see the kind of cases

1824
01:03:15,670 --> 01:03:13,599
or the aerial cases rather because these

1825
01:03:17,510 --> 01:03:15,680
are all pilot and aircrew cases there's

1826
01:03:18,710 --> 01:03:17,520
no kind of you know for once on the

1827
01:03:20,789 --> 01:03:18,720
ground people seeing things on the

1828
01:03:22,870 --> 01:03:20,799
ground but you'll see how those

1829
01:03:24,630 --> 01:03:22,880
sightings you know sort of

1830
01:03:27,190 --> 01:03:24,640
um caused reactions within the

1831
01:03:28,950 --> 01:03:27,200
intelligence committee uh community in

1832
01:03:30,789 --> 01:03:28,960
the us air force and what they were

1833
01:03:32,630 --> 01:03:30,799
trying to do to try and catch up if you

1834
01:03:36,230 --> 01:03:32,640
like and try to find out what was going

1835
01:03:38,470 --> 01:03:36,240
on so it tells quite a nice story

1836
01:03:40,710 --> 01:03:38,480
in in some detail but i don't go it's

1837
01:03:42,309 --> 01:03:40,720
not a huge deep dive but there's enough

1838
01:03:44,789 --> 01:03:42,319
information there hopefully to satisfy

1839
01:03:46,470 --> 01:03:44,799
people who want you know uh a little bit

1840
01:03:48,150 --> 01:03:46,480
more information but for the people who

1841
01:03:50,789 --> 01:03:48,160
are just coming to it quite casually

1842
01:03:51,589 --> 01:03:50,799
then it tells a decent story for them as

1843
01:03:53,190 --> 01:03:51,599
well

1844
01:03:55,829 --> 01:03:53,200
yeah absolutely i'll bring that back up

1845
01:03:57,990 --> 01:03:55,839
so this one is 50 to 52. forward by

1846
01:04:00,470 --> 01:03:58,000
louis celezondo which is a really good

1847
01:04:02,309 --> 01:04:00,480
really good forward i have read that um

1848
01:04:04,710 --> 01:04:02,319
and then if we just go back to this one

1849
01:04:06,950 --> 01:04:04,720
so this is 46 to 49

1850
01:04:08,870 --> 01:04:06,960
dawn of the flying sources forward by

1851
01:04:10,870 --> 01:04:08,880
george nap there is a link below this

1852
01:04:13,270 --> 01:04:10,880
video to amazon where you can go and

1853
01:04:16,230 --> 01:04:13,280
check them all out order them um they

1854
01:04:18,950 --> 01:04:16,240
are available on

1855
01:04:20,710 --> 01:04:18,960
kindle that's the word as well

1856
01:04:23,270 --> 01:04:20,720
so we've had

1857
01:04:24,950 --> 01:04:23,280
four words from sean cahill lou elizondo

1858
01:04:27,510 --> 01:04:24,960
and george knapp so what can you tell us

1859
01:04:29,589 --> 01:04:27,520
about the next book

1860
01:04:33,029 --> 01:04:29,599
so the next one um

1861
01:04:35,990 --> 01:04:33,039
is going to be from 53 to 54 so

1862
01:04:37,190 --> 01:04:36,000
again it's a period of time when you

1863
01:04:38,789 --> 01:04:37,200
know there were still quite a lot of

1864
01:04:40,390 --> 01:04:38,799
things still happening

1865
01:04:42,789 --> 01:04:40,400
some people seem to think that after the

1866
01:04:44,789 --> 01:04:42,799
um july weekends in 1952 when there was

1867
01:04:47,430 --> 01:04:44,799
the washington sightings over washington

1868
01:04:49,510 --> 01:04:47,440
dc the things fell off a cliff well they

1869
01:04:51,190 --> 01:04:49,520
did in the public sphere because the

1870
01:04:52,470 --> 01:04:51,200
press basically went oh yeah the

1871
01:04:53,829 --> 01:04:52,480
american air force are telling us that

1872
01:04:55,589 --> 01:04:53,839
nothing's happening oh yeah and they

1873
01:04:57,910 --> 01:04:55,599
just went away but actually the

1874
01:04:59,510 --> 01:04:57,920
phenomenon never went away and reporting

1875
01:05:01,990 --> 01:04:59,520
didn't really go away either even the

1876
01:05:03,349 --> 01:05:02,000
press or elsewhere so but there are

1877
01:05:05,430 --> 01:05:03,359
quite a lot of interesting events in

1878
01:05:07,990 --> 01:05:05,440
those two years as well now rather than

1879
01:05:10,630 --> 01:05:08,000
going and approaching some famous name

1880
01:05:13,349 --> 01:05:10,640
and i'm grateful to to sean and to

1881
01:05:14,710 --> 01:05:13,359
lewis and to george um this time for

1882
01:05:16,630 --> 01:05:14,720
this book i wanted something a bit

1883
01:05:19,670 --> 01:05:16,640
closer to home in terms of the people

1884
01:05:21,510 --> 01:05:19,680
that you know our friends and people who

1885
01:05:24,150 --> 01:05:21,520
are kind of fellow travelers in terms of

1886
01:05:26,950 --> 01:05:24,160
looking at real documents but also in

1887
01:05:28,630 --> 01:05:26,960
understanding and appreciating the value

1888
01:05:30,710 --> 01:05:28,640
of cases like this

1889
01:05:34,470 --> 01:05:30,720
so there are two people this time for

1890
01:05:36,390 --> 01:05:34,480
forwards and those of you who

1891
01:05:38,630 --> 01:05:36,400
sort of see the kind of podcasts that we

1892
01:05:41,270 --> 01:05:38,640
end up on may know who they are but um

1893
01:05:43,910 --> 01:05:41,280
that's all i'm going to say

1894
01:05:46,230 --> 01:05:43,920
fair enough yeah let it be a surprise

1895
01:05:48,069 --> 01:05:46,240
when it comes out do we have a rough

1896
01:05:51,109 --> 01:05:48,079
date when that might come out

1897
01:05:52,630 --> 01:05:51,119
well the book's finished

1898
01:05:54,630 --> 01:05:52,640
it's been finished quite a long time

1899
01:05:56,470 --> 01:05:54,640
actually i've just had it put away um

1900
01:05:57,589 --> 01:05:56,480
and then

1901
01:05:59,430 --> 01:05:57,599
because

1902
01:06:01,109 --> 01:05:59,440
uh dawn the flying saucers only came out

1903
01:06:03,910 --> 01:06:01,119
in june i didn't want to rush another

1904
01:06:05,990 --> 01:06:03,920
book out straight away so it may well be

1905
01:06:07,829 --> 01:06:06,000
christmas kind of just before christmas

1906
01:06:09,750 --> 01:06:07,839
when it comes out um

1907
01:06:12,549 --> 01:06:09,760
and then that's a night nice marketing

1908
01:06:15,430 --> 01:06:12,559
strategy strategy obviously

1909
01:06:17,750 --> 01:06:15,440
full transparency but um yeah you know

1910
01:06:19,349 --> 01:06:17,760
it'll come out then um i'm waiting on

1911
01:06:20,789 --> 01:06:19,359
one of the forwards i've got one already

1912
01:06:22,630 --> 01:06:20,799
uh i'm waiting for the second one and

1913
01:06:24,069 --> 01:06:22,640
when i get that then you know we'll see

1914
01:06:25,910 --> 01:06:24,079
we'll see what i'm saying

1915
01:06:27,910 --> 01:06:25,920
and will we be seeing another dan zetas

1916
01:06:30,230 --> 01:06:27,920
from oolof rocna collaboration oh i hope

1917
01:06:32,549 --> 01:06:30,240
so i wouldn't want to go to anybody else

1918
01:06:35,190 --> 01:06:32,559
i just wouldn't look right it wouldn't

1919
01:06:37,109 --> 01:06:35,200
it wouldn't sit right on the shelf

1920
01:06:40,549 --> 01:06:37,119
no not at all

1921
01:06:42,230 --> 01:06:40,559
well this shouldn't it would hate me

1922
01:06:43,910 --> 01:06:42,240
yeah no i'm sure

1923
01:06:45,670 --> 01:06:43,920
if dan or ooloff are watching this i'm

1924
01:06:47,270 --> 01:06:45,680
sure they've already bounced ideas off

1925
01:06:49,510 --> 01:06:47,280
of each other probably when they were in

1926
01:06:51,589 --> 01:06:49,520
sweden last weekend i'm sure there was

1927
01:06:53,349 --> 01:06:51,599
some good conversations well graham

1928
01:06:55,670 --> 01:06:53,359
listen thank you so much for doing this

1929
01:06:56,950 --> 01:06:55,680
i really appreciate it fascinating cases

1930
01:06:58,710 --> 01:06:56,960
and like i said at the beginning i'd

1931
01:07:00,630 --> 01:06:58,720
love to do this on a you know maybe

1932
01:07:02,950 --> 01:07:00,640
every six weeks on a rough thing like

1933
01:07:05,029 --> 01:07:02,960
that and just dig back into these cases

1934
01:07:05,990 --> 01:07:05,039
that are heavily featured in the books

1935
01:07:11,190 --> 01:07:06,000
so

1936
01:07:14,710 --> 01:07:11,200
say thank you to everybody in the live

1937
01:07:17,270 --> 01:07:14,720
chat for having a great cordial time

1938
01:07:19,349 --> 01:07:17,280
asking great questions and

1939
01:07:21,270 --> 01:07:19,359
i'm going to be back where are we today

1940
01:07:22,230 --> 01:07:21,280
sunday i'm going to be back on wednesday

1941
01:07:24,230 --> 01:07:22,240
with

1942
01:07:26,390 --> 01:07:24,240
diana pasulka so i'm really looking

1943
01:07:27,990 --> 01:07:26,400
forward to that one if anybody has any

1944
01:07:30,390 --> 01:07:28,000
questions for diana you can head over to

1945
01:07:32,069 --> 01:07:30,400
my social media accounts and just

1946
01:07:33,349 --> 01:07:32,079
hit me up there with some questions but

1947
01:07:36,069 --> 01:07:33,359
for now guys

1948
01:07:38,069 --> 01:07:36,079
thank you again graham thank you and